1

 

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA

MIAMI DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No.

) 99-49-CR-KING

Plaintiff, )

) Miami, Florida

v. ) November 18, 1999

)

SABRETECH, INC., ET AL., )

)

Defendants. )

)

--------------------------------------x

TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JAMES LAWRENCE KING

and a jury

APPEARANCES:

For the Government: CAROLINE HECK-MILLER, ESQ.

GEOFFREY BRIGHAM, ESQ.

For the Defendant SabreTech: MARTIN RASKIN, ESQ.

JANE RASKIN, ESQ.

NORMAN MOSCOWITZ, ESQ.

For the Defendant Gonzalez: ROBERT DUNLAP, ESQ.

For the Defendant Florence: JANE MOSCOWITZ, ESQ.

Court Reporter: Richard A. Kaufman, C.M.R.R.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

2

 

1 I N D E X

2 Direct Cross Red. Rec.

3

WITNESSES FOR THE GOVERNMENT:

4

CHRISTOPHER M. DISTEFANO 7 16, 72 74, 117 121

5 WILLIAM DRECHSLER 81 96, 101 126

AMY HUSZAI 127 137

6 ROBERT RODRIGUEZ 139 207 208

JOHN TABER 209

7

8

WITNESSES FOR THE DEFENDANTS:

9

10

11

12

EXHIBITS

13

GOVERNMENT IN EVID.

14

Government's Exhibit 77B............................... 1:8:11

15 Government's Exhibit 2F................................ 1:88:1

Government's Exhibit 18F-2........................... 1:130:20

16 Government's Exhibits 25A, 26A, 35A................... 1:132:2

Government's Exhibit 42 and 43........................ 1:134:2

17 Government's Exhibit 45............................... 1:164:3

Government's Exhibit 77H.............................. 1:180:3

18 Government's Exhibit 64A, B and C..................... 1:184:7

Government's Exhibit 28C............................. 1:214:17

19 Government's Exhibit 28B............................. 1:216:14

Government's Exhibit 77J............................. 1:247:22

20

21

22

23 DEFENDANT'S

24 SabreTech Exhibit 7.................................. 1:124:13

25

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

3

 

1 (Open court. Jury not present.)

2 THE COURT: Yesterday we were dealing with defense

3 motions relating to the opening statement.

4 You may proceed.

5 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Your Honor, just to finish up.

6 Yesterday on the last count, the destructive device count,

7 whatever the statute may call for, what we are talking about is

8 the indictment and the indictment assumes a burden to prove

9 they knowingly and willfully, which requires the government to

10 prove what they already stated they couldn't prove, that there

11 was an intent to make the plane unworkable.

12 With respect to the reckless hazardous materials

13 count, I think there are 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 18 and 20; I think

14 that is right, I left the note in my briefcase, all those

15 counts are predicated on various hazardous materials

16 regulation; so everything you could do is charged separately.

17 You mispack, mislabel, misclassify; but the predicate of all of

18 them is recklessly causing hazardous materials to be shipped

19 and correctly in opening statement, Ms. Miller acknowledged

20 that the government could prove no intent on anybody's part to

21 harm the airplane. They could not even foresee and think, an

22 important word, where we are talking about a reckless standard,

23 which is what Mr. Florence is charged with, that the plane

24 would crash; but more significantly to the argument with

25 respect to Mr. Florence on whether he recklessly caused the

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

4

 

1 hazardous materials to be shipped, it is the government's

2 acknowledgment in opening statement that the people in shipping

3 and receiving at SabreTech when they filled out the shipping

4 ticket that says oxygen cannisters empty, did not rely on the

5 statement that Eugene Florence had allegedly made saying there

6 were no shipping caps.

7 Actually, maybe hazardous materials shipping caps are

8 no, but the point is, and it will be our point obviously in

9 argument, the trail of anything Eugene Florence had anything to

10 do with, ends with his tagging of the generators. He is not

11 part of the story from there. To cause to be shipped, would

12 require some act that caused the generators to be shipped, and

13 the government acknowledged in opening that there was an

14 independent act in shipping and receiving. They had heard of

15 this upcoming Continental audit and they wanted to clean up the

16 area and then -- let's see if I can find the part right now,

17 Your Honor, but the government -- Ms. Miller clearly stated in

18 shipping and receiving they did not rely on or see the

19 paperwork that Mr. Florence allegedly filled out.

20 Once you cut that causal chain, the government has

21 acknowledged it cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr.

22 Florence was involved in the shipping -- in causing the

23 shipping of the used generators.

24 That is basically it, Your Honor.

25 THE COURT: Thank you.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

5

 

1 Ms. Miller, if you would like to respond.

2 MS. MILLER: Yes, Your Honor. I won't respond further

3 with regard to count 24 unless the Court has any questions. I

4 have submitted a Memorandum of Law in that regard which I think

5 the Court received which conclusively addresses the issue.

6 THE COURT: About an hour ago.

7 MS. MILLER: With regard to Ms. Moscowitz' arguments

8 with regard to the Hazardous Materials Act, that argument is

9 not well taken. The government did not concede this defendant

10 could not foresee what would happen to those generators. The

11 government in argument did alert the jury it would not hear

12 evidence that in fact the defendant necessarily did, but

13 exactly the distinction Ms. Moscowitz tried to push the

14 envelope was significant. He could have foreseen it, the item

15 he lied about, quote unquote was a shipping cap.

16 Furthermore, Ms. Moscowitz says the causal chain is

17 broken if the shippers don't rely on Mr. Florence's false

18 statements but there are other threads in a causal chain than

19 just the false statement. After all, it was Mr. Florence who

20 helped pack those generators. It was Mr. Florence who

21 understood the significance of their having shipping caps on

22 them. It was Mr. Florence who participated in the inadequate

23 wrapping of them and more than any other mechanic, it was Mr.

24 Florence who took on responsibility for the paperwork

25 associated with those oxygen generators, and whether or not

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

6

 

1 that paper made its way to shipping, the fact Eugene Florence

2 was the one who signed it and did not put a stop to that

3 causational complaint is also of significance. Certainly, Your

4 Honor, enough to overcome a motion like this which as the law

5 teaches us according to the cases cited our memorandum is

6 rarely granted and then only in the exceptional circumstance

7 where there can be no conviction on any view of the evidence

8 that is -- I am not stating it right. Any view of the evidence

9 which is of the accident with the government's opening

10 statement must be considered as defeating such a motion.

11 Thank you.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 The Court appreciates the effort that counsel put into

14 the preparation of these arguments and the thoroughness with

15 which you analyzed the relevant counts and the statutes and the

16 cases involved. It has been very helpful.

17 At this point in time, the motions, at this point in

18 the case, the motions are denied. Both motions, the motion to

19 dismiss, the respective Counts 24 and 8 through 23 made on

20 behalf of all defendants, the motion is hereby denied.

21 Who is your first witness, Ms. Miller or are we

22 continuing?

23 MS. MILLER: We are continuing with the direct

24 examination of Christopher DiStefano.

25 THE COURT: We told the jury to be here at 9 o'clock.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

7

 

1 We will be in recess.

2 (Thereupon a brief recess was taken, after which the

3 following proceedings were had.)

4 (Open court. Jury not present.)

5 THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

6 (Jury present.)

7 THE COURT: We will resume with the direct examination

8 of the witness who was on the stand yesterday

9 Thereupon --

10

11 CHRISTOPHER M. DISTEFANO,

12 called as a witness herein, having been previously duly sworn,

13 was examined and testified further as follows:

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MS. MILLER: (Continuing.)

16 Q. Mr. DiStefano, are you testifying pursuant to any agreement

17 or promise?

18 A. No, I am not.

19 Q. Allow me to show you please, Government's Exhibit 77B, and

20 ask you if you recognize that. It contains two documents.

21 A. Yes, ma'am, I recognize it.

22 Q. How many documents are there?

23 A. Three.

24 Q. Do any of those documents bear your signature?

25 A. Yes, ma'am, two of them.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 Q. Do those documents relate in some way to your testimony

2 here today?

3 A. Yes, ma'am, they do.

4 MS. MILLER: The government offers 77B in evidence.

5 MR. MOSCOWITZ: May we see them a moment?

6 (Interruption.)

7 MR. MOSCOWITZ: No objection, Your Honor.

8 THE COURT: 77B for the government is admitted into

9 evidence.

10 (A document was received in

11 evidence as Government's Exhibit 77B.)

12 BY MS. MILLER:

13 Q. Mr. DiStefano, what are these documents?

14 THE COURT: Aren't they in evidence? Can't the jury

15 read them or see them?

16 MS. MILLER: They can, Your Honor.

17 If I may, I will use the screen.

18 BY MS. MILLER:

19 Q. Mr. DiStefano, do you recognize those documents as ones

20 that you entered into?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that a use immunity agreement?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. What have you received as a result of that use immunity

25 letter?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 A. Use immunity.

2 Q. What do you understand by use immunity?

3 MR. DUNLAP: I would object as to what he understands.

4 THE COURT: Yes. The document is in evidence. If

5 there is some confusion somebody can ask. If he doesn't

6 understand it now it is a little late. He signed it and it is

7 in evidence.

8 MS. MILLER: May I publish the last paragraph of the

9 letter?

10 THE COURT: Sure. Hand the whole thing to the jury

11 and they can read it or look at it on the monitor.

12 MR. DUNLAP: I would object to a publication of a

13 section of it.

14 THE COURT: She is publishing it for the jury. It is

15 in evidence. She has a right to do it if she wants to put it

16 on the screen or read part of it, it is all right.

17 MS. MILLER: The whole letter is only three sentences.

18 "This letter sets out the agreement between you and

19 the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District

20 of Florida for information to be provided by you at a

21 conference at the Office of the United States Attorney for the

22 Southern District of Florida on May 20, 1999. The United

23 States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of Florida

24 extends to you for the purpose of this conference use and

25 derivative use immunity of the same substance and extent as was

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

10

1 conferred upon you by your grand jury testimony in 1997, to

2 wit, the Office of the United States Attorney for the Southern

3 District of Florida agrees no information provided or given by

4 you during this meeting will be used directly or indirectly

5 against you in any criminal case except a prosecution for

6 perjury or giving a false statement."

7 THE COURT: The next question.

8 BY MS. MILLER:

9 Q. Is there also a court order to that effect?

10 A. Yes, ma'am.

11 Q. What time or occasion does that court order relate to?

12 THE COURT: Is this an issue in any way?

13 You were granted immunity as you understand it by

14 these letters and a court order; is that right?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 MS. MILLER: I believe it is relevant that the court

17 order was associated with the grand jury testimony. That is

18 what I wanted to establish.

19 THE COURT: Well, then, call the Judge that signed it

20 or something but let's move on. All you can state is what is

21 in the court order. You can offer the court order into

22 evidence.

23 MS. MILLER: The witness can tell us when it applies.

24 THE COURT: When he received a copy of the order?

25 When did you receive a copy of the order?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

11

 

1 THE WITNESS: At the grand jury.

2 THE COURT: Do you know what month?

3 THE WITNESS: No, sir, the date is on the order.

4 THE COURT: What is the date on the order? Does

5 anybody know?

6 MS. MILLER: It is July of 1997.

7 THE COURT: July of 1997. All right.

8 BY MS. MILLER:

9 Q. Mr. DiStefano, I would like to turn your attention to the

10 period of January 1996 and ask you if there came a time in

11 January of 1996 when you were in the office of Danny Gonzalez?

12 A. Yes, ma'am, there was.

13 Q. When was that?

14 A. I believe it was some time mid-morning of one day. I went

15 in to make a phone call.

16 Q. What part of the month was it, if you recall?

17 A. It was around the first, within the first week. Within the

18 first week to five days of January.

19 Q. What did you observe in Danny Gonzalez' office?

20 A. A letter on top of his desk from --

21 MR. DUNLAP: Objection as to the content of the

22 document.

23 THE COURT: Objection to what? I didn't hear you.

24 MR. DUNLAP: Whatever was in the document. It is not

25 in evidence.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 THE COURT: He saw a letter on his desk.

2 BY MS. MILLER:

3 Q. What if anything did you do with regard to this letter?

4 A. I picked it up and made copies of it.

5 Q. What did you do with the original?

6 A. Put it back on Danny's desk.

7 Q. What did you do with the copies that you made?

8 A. I kept them.

9 Q. Until when?

10 A. Until I was interviewed by the Fortiers at SabreTech.

11 Q. When was that?

12 A. Shortly after the search warrant, after the FBI searched

13 the premises.

14 Q. Did you retain a copy of the letter thereafter?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Did you provide a copy of that letter to anybody else

17 thereafter?

18 A. Yes, ma'am. I gave a copy to my lawyer.

19 Q. Did you give a copy to anybody else?

20 A. At the grand jury hearing I supplied one.

21 Q. I am handing you what has been marked for identification

22 purposes as Government's Exhibit 2F and ask you to take a look

23 at that.

24 Do you recognize that document?

25 A. Yes, ma'am, this is the same document.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

13

 

1 Q. Does it have any kind of a sticker on it?

2 A. Yes, ma'am. It is a grand jury Exhibit 20 Alpha, then

3 Government's Exhibit 2F.

4 Q. Mr. DiStefano, did there come a time you took something

5 from Aserca? Excuse me.

6 Did there come a time you took something from

7 SabreTech?

8 A. Yes, ma'am.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. I believe it was the day after the FBI search.

11 Q. Can you place that in time at all, a year, a month,

12 anything that will give us a time frame?

13 A. It was in the summer of 1996.

14 Q. Had you been present during the FBI search?

15 A. Yes, ma'am, I had.

16 Q. The day following the FBI search, what if anything did you

17 observe?

18 A. That there was a ValuJet log book on a file cabinet in my

19 office.

20 Q. Can you describe what the book looked like?

21 A. I believe it is approximately 11 by 8. Probably an inch

22 thick, including the covers.

23 Q. What did you do with that book?

24 A. I took it with me.

25 Q. Where did you take it?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

14

 

1 A. I took it to my house.

2 Q. Where did you put it in your house?

3 A. In my garage on top of my tool cabinet on top of some other

4 aircraft books.

5 Q. Did you look in the book?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was it?

8 A. A turnover log.

9 Q. What is a turnover log?

10 A. It is where a supervisor will make an entry to the oncoming

11 shift supervisor as to what work he wants to be performed, or

12 that he has completed.

13 It provides continuity between the shifts.

14 Q. Is this a record that is provided to the customer?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Are the tasks that are recorded -- withdrawn.

17 What happened to this book after you brought it

18 home -- withdrawn.

19 Did there come a time you looked for the book again?

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 Q. When was that?

22 A. I believe it was around December of 1996.

23 Q. Did you find the book?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. What recess to that book, if you know?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 A. It is my belief that --

2 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Tell us what you know. Could you find it?

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 THE COURT: Where did you search for it?

6 THE WITNESS: In my hall closet. In my house,

7 actually.

8 THE COURT: It wasn't in your house or in your closet?

9 THE WITNESS: No.

10 THE COURT: Do you know what happened to it?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 BY MS. MILLER:

14 Q. What happened to it?

15 A. I was cleaning out the closet, I think in November of 1996

16 and I had stacks of aircraft books, familiarization books below

17 and on top of the log book. I did not look at each book

18 individually. Rather I looked at the whole stack of them, and

19 assumed they were all aircraft familiarization books and I

20 picked up the whole stack of them and put them in a plastic

21 garbage bag and took them out to my garbage.

22 Q. Mr. DiStefano, you told us about a meeting with some people

23 called the Fortiers; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, ma'am.

25 Q. Do you recall if you met with them around the time of any

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

16

 

1 other interviews you were having?

2 THE COURT: When did you meet with Mr. Fortier.

3 A. I only remember meeting with him once and I really don't

4 recall the date.

5 THE COURT: Do you know approximately when it was,

6 using a reference to Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving?

7 THE WITNESS: It would have been the end of May, the

8 first part of June.

9 BY MS. MILLER:

10 Q. Of what year?

11 A. 1996.

12 Q. Mr. DiStefano, how long did you continue to work at

13 SabreTech?

14 A. Until September 13, 1996.

15 Q. On what terms did you leave SabreTech?

16 A. Good terms.

17 MS. MILLER: No further questions for this witness.

18 THE COURT: All right.

19 MS. MILLER: Could I just check my exhibits?

20 (Interruption.)

21 MS. MILLER: Thank you. Nothing further.

22 CROSS EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. DiStefano, I am Norman Moscowitz and I

25 represent SabreTech.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

17

 

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. You testified yesterday that you were the supervisor, you

3 were the maintenance supervisor on the Aserca project?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That means you were in charge of that project?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Danny Gonzalez was your supervisor; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Danny Gonzalez put you in charge of that project?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When he put you in charge of that project, that was a

12 promotion for you; correct?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. You didn't regard that as a promotion?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Had you ever had a project like that before that you were

17 in charge of?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You did?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In terms of Danny Gonzalez being your supervisor,

22 Mr. Gonzalez was the manager of hangar operations generally?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That means he supervised whatever projects were at

25 SabreTech at that time; correct?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

18

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were the person primarily responsible for the Aserca

3 project?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also testified that you were in line at that point for

6 a further promotion; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. You were in line for a promotion to be hangar manager?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That was a promotion that you wanted?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And you were aware at the time you were working on the

13 Aserca project that promotion was something that would be

14 coming your way?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. You told us yesterday that the Aserca project was for the

17 maintenance on two aircraft; is that correct?

18 A. I am sorry.

19 Q. The Aserca project involved maintenance work under your

20 direction of two aircraft belonging to Aserca Airlines?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And each aircraft has a registration number; correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. The first one in time was aircraft 705C?

25 A. Right, yes, sir.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

19

 

1 Q. The second one which arrived about a month later was 720C?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. You told us on 705C, the first Aserca aircraft which you

4 were supervising the paperwork was chaotic?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. In fact a lot of paperwork was lost; correct?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. That was happening, sir, on your watch?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. That was under your responsibility?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. You told us that you asked Michael -- Michael Quan is a

13 friend of yours?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You knew him from before he was working at SabreTech?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You asked Danny to hire Michael Quan to be your assistant?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Mr. Gonzalez agreed to that request?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You told us some time in late December there was a meeting

22 with Jaime Galindo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Jiral?

25 A. Yes, sir.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

20

1 Q. Mr. Gonzalez?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And others?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And Mr. Galindo, he essentially was in charge of the whole

6 SabreTech facility in Miami?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This was upper management?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You told us at this meeting you made the proposal to make a

11 change in the way paperwork would be handed out and managed on

12 your watch?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The essence of the new plan as you described it, you would

15 get greater control over the paperwork?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You wanted absolute control over the flow of that paper?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. You wanted absolute control who would have access to that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you told us everyone at that meeting agreed to it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At that time, at that meeting, that proposal was not

24 presented in writing, was it?

25 A. No.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

21

 

1 Q. And it wasn't signed off on by upper level management, was

2 it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You told us yesterday afternoon about an argument you and

5 Danny Gonzalez had in the work booth a few days before

6 Christmas?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This was about 18 hours, you said, after you implemented

9 your changes in the handling of the paperwork; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Among these changes you made, you described a system in

12 which the work cards on this project were put up on a wall on a

13 board; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. They were all arrayed on that wall?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. A common way, the usual way of arranging that paperwork is

18 top to bottom; correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. What that means is, sir, it is not just top to bottom

21 alphabetically or numerically, it is top to bottom by parts of

22 the aircraft; correct? The common way of arranging this

23 paperwork.

24 Do you understand my question?

25 A. No, I don't.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

22

 

1 Q. When you say it is arranged vertically top to bottom, there

2 are a number of rows of this paperwork?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Each row relates to a particular part of the aircraft?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Hypothetically, as you face that board, on the left might

7 be a row of the work cards for the left wing?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Then as you move over to the middle, it could be a row of

10 work cards for the fuselage?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. As you move further to the right, it is another row of work

13 cards for the right wing?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. So it is not just top to bottom, but they are arranged by

16 part of the aircraft?

17 A. Yes, absolutely.

18 Q. And your change innovation was to take that paperwork and

19 make it go left to right, horizontally?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. That was a change?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Not the common way; correct?

24 A. That is not true.

25 THE COURT: Could I inquire of the materiality? We

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

23

 

1 are not here to decide which way is better. The question has

2 to do with the fact they did or did not have the wrong

3 location. I don't see the materiality of developing the best

4 system for handling this work. That is just not an issue in

5 this case.

6 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

7 Q. When Mr. Gonzalez came into the booth that morning, he

8 looked up at that board and said I can't read this; correct?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. This board was now arranged your way?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. What followed, as you described, was an argument between

13 you and Mr. Gonzalez over whether it would be done your way or

14 his way; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You testified both of you raised your voices to each other?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were both yelling?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you were very upset; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As a result of this fight, Mr. Gonzalez relieved you from

23 your position as head of that project; correct?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. After that date, did you take several days vacation?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

24

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when you came back you were no longer head of that

3 project, so somebody relieved you; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It was your understanding or your belief at the time that

6 fight killed your chances for your promotion; correct?

7 THE COURT: Let's ask him what was said then you all

8 argue to the jury and let the jury decide what happened.

9 Asking his opinion will lead us into a side issue.

10 You can ask him, did you get promoted to hangar

11 manager after that.

12 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

13 Q. Did you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You blamed Danny Gonzalez for that, didn't you?

16 A. Sure.

17 Q. And you no longer like Danny Gonzalez; do you?

18 A. Then or now?

19 Q. I am sorry?

20 A. Then or now?

21 Q. Then after this incident happened?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. You did come back to work at SabreTech after those several

24 days off?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

25

 

1 Q. You weren't fired?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You weren't demoted?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You were transferred to work on a different project;

6 correct?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. That was the ValuJet project?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. ValuJet was a customer of SabreTech?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when you were transferred to that project, there were

13 three ValuJet aircraft being worked on?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On this project you were now working under a different

16 manager; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That was Manny Quintana?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you had no reduction in pay?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No loss of benefits?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And you were given responsibility again to be supervisor on

25 one of those aircraft?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

26

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, you testified yesterday when Mr. Gonzalez came into

3 the booth and you had a few minutes of argument then you saw

4 him, you left for a while and you came back and you saw him

5 outside the booth handing work cards out to mechanics; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I want to make sure I have this correct. What you

8 testified to, he would be handing different cards to different

9 mechanics. Every so often he would stick one card under his

10 arm?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. When you described him doing that, sticking them under his

13 arm, you meant that was a way of his holding onto particular

14 cards?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You are not suggesting he was concealing those cards?

17 A. No.

18 Q. It was just the way of holding them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also testified that later on Mr. Gonzalez came back

21 into the work booth when you were sitting there with Mr. Quan;

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you saw him sign off on a work card; correct?

25 A. I didn't see him sign it.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

27

 

1 Q. He brought it in and it was already signed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He made a comment to the effect, this is the way we will do

4 this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. By the way, after that incident, did you go back to

7 Mr. Galindo and complain that Mr. Gonzalez was changing the

8 rules on you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You didn't do that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you go to Mr. Doral and complain about that?

13 A. No. He wasn't even in maintenance.

14 Q. You didn't go back to Mr. Galindo who was Mr. Gonzalez'

15 boss?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When you were replaced on the Aserca project by another

18 supervisor, that is a fellow named Mike Villavicencia?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. You don't remember who it was?

21 A. It might have been. I believe it was Mike. I believe it

22 was.

23 Q. With regard to Mr. Gonzalez bringing in this work card

24 signed that you saw, did you report that incident to

25 Mr. Galindo?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

28

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you report that to Mr. Villavicencia whoever your

3 successor was?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you report that at that time to the FAA?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You kept that to yourself?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Mr. DiStefano, you told Ms. Miller yesterday that the work

10 card, Government's Exhibit 2, is the one that you saw

11 Mr. Gonzalez bring in signed to your office; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. This work card specifically relates to the ice protection

14 system; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this relates to a maintenance check for that system;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, as you sit here today, you are not sure, are you, that

20 was the card that Mr. Gonzalez brought in, are you?

21 A. Sure I am.

22 Q. You are 100 percent sure?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There is no doubt, you are sure of that?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

29

 

1 Q. As Ms. Miller asked you, you testified in the grand jury

2 about two years ago?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That was in July of 1997; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. July of 1997 would have been about a year, year and a half

7 after this incident?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Between this incident in the work booth and your appearance

10 in the grand jury, July of 1997, you had been interviewed in

11 connection with what took place at SabreTech?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You had talked to FAA investigators?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You had talked to the NTSB?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Had you talked to the FBI before the grand jury appearance?

18 A. I believe I did.

19 Q. Let me ask you, since your grand jury appearance you talked

20 to the FBI with counsel present; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have any discussions with the FBI at that period

23 without counsel present?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Any discussion with the FBI without the assistance of

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

30

 

1 counsel?

2 A. You will have to re-ask that.

3 Q. Do you recall there was a search at SabreTech in the summer

4 of 1996?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Did you talk to any FBI agents before that search?

7 A. I don't believe I did.

8 Q. You don't think you did?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Your best recollection is, you first talked to the FBI

11 agents after the search took place?

12 MS. MILLER: I thought Mr. Moscowitz first question

13 was FAA now he is asking FBI.

14 MR. MOSCOWITZ: FBI.

15 THE COURT: Did you talk to any FBI agents before they

16 came out to SabreTech and made their search of the premises?

17 You were there, you saw them do that. Before that did you talk

18 to any FBI agents, if you recall?

19 THE WITNESS: I do not recall doing so.

20 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

21 Q. Between the time of this incident and your appearance

22 before the grand jury in July of 1997, you had been talking to

23 various investigators about this subject?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall, sir, when you testified in the grand jury on

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

31

 

1 July -- you had two grand jury appearances?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. They were two weeks apart.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall in one of those appearances, the first

6 appearance, you were asked questions about this incident with

7 Mr. Gonzalez in the booth?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. You were asked at that time if you recall Mr. Gonzalez

10 bringing in a signed work card; correct?

11 A. Yes -- I don't recall.

12 Q. Do you recall discussion about the signed work card?

13 A. I recall a discussion about some work items.

14 Q. Do you recall, sir, -- it was Mr. Brigham who was

15 questioning you at that time; do you recall that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall Mr. Brigham asked you whether you could

18 identify the particular work card that Mr. Gonzalez brought

19 back into the booth that was already signed; do you recall he

20 asked you that?

21 A. I believe so, yes.

22 Q. And you recall you told him at that time you were unable to

23 do so; correct?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. At that time in July of 1997, 18 months or so after this

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

32

 

1 incident, you couldn't recall which work card it was; correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. All you could recall was, it was a work card?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. In fact there were potentially hundreds of these work

6 cards?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. All you could say at that time was that it was a routine

9 work card?

10 A. That is right.

11 Q. Now, sir, since that time in the grand jury, have you had

12 further conversations with agents about that work card?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Have those conversations been in the last several weeks?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many separate meetings have you had with government

17 agents where you have discussed that matter?

18 A. I can recall three. I could be wrong, but that is what I

19 recall.

20 Q. Ms. Miller was present at those meetings?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was Mr. Brigham present?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was Ms. Fruge present?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

33

 

1 Q. Was there another agent, Mr. Long, present?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Long is an agent with the Department of Transportation?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long did each of these meetings last?

6 A. I believe anywhere from maybe four to six hours.

7 Q. Each?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So we are talking about maybe 15 to 20 hours worth of

10 meeting time?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Pretty intense discussion about these work cards; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. By the way, sir, Government's Exhibit 2, this work card

15 which has Mr. Gonzalez' signature on it, it is not dated by

16 him, is it?

17 A. No, it is not.

18 Q. So it doesn't indicate on what date he signed it; does it?

19 A. No, it doesn't.

20 Q. Have you talked to Michael Quan about this incident --

21 Michael Quan was present during this incident, correct; in the

22 booth?

23 A. I believe I kicked everybody out.

24 Q. I am sorry. When Mr. Gonzalez came back in --

25 A. Michael was there.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

34

 

1 Q. You talked to Michael Quan about this incident, haven't

2 you?

3 A. I believe immediately after it happened I made a comment

4 about it, and since that time I don't believe we have talked

5 about it.

6 Q. Are you aware, sir, Michael Quan's recollection is that the

7 work card --

8 MS. MILLER: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

11 Q. Now, sir, you testified a few minutes ago that about a week

12 after this incident, ten days, in early January 1996, you came

13 back to SabreTech; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At this time when you returned, you were working under

16 Mr. Quintana's supervision; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And Mr. Quintana has his own office; correct?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. Where is his office in relation to Mr. Gonzalez' office?

21 A. 80 feet south.

22 Q. It is not near Mr. Gonzalez' office?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You testified you went into Mr. Gonzalez' office; is that

25 correct?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

35

 

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. When you went into his office -- first of all you could see

3 from the outside he wasn't there; correct?

4 A. Yes, by looking in the door, sure.

5 Q. You saw he wasn't there?

6 A. Sure.

7 Q. At this point you were no longer working directly for

8 Mr. Gonzalez?

9 A. Well, no.

10 Q. You were working directly for Mr. Quintana?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You say you went in and you saw papers on Mr. Gonzalez'

13 desk; correct?

14 A. Sure. He had, whatever papers, on his desk.

15 Q. The document which you said you took and copied off of

16 Mr. Gonzalez' desk, this wasn't the only piece of paper on his

17 desk, was it?

18 A. No, it wasn't.

19 Q. There were a lot of other papers on his desk?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All over the desk or in one neat pile?

22 A. No.

23 Q. There were a lot of papers?

24 A. All over.

25 Q. This document which you took, it doesn't have a letterhead

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

36

 

1 on it; does it?

2 A. No. What do you mean a letterhead?

3 Q. It doesn't indicate the name of a company or any person?

4 A. I believe it does.

5 Q. Is this the document, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does it have a typed letterhead on it?

8 A. It is not typed.

9 Q. It is just handwritten?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This is just a handwritten document?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. You looked at the papers on Mr. Gonzalez' desk and you said

14 you saw this one handwritten document and you picked it up;

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you read it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it is more than one page; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You read through the whole thing?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This wasn't addressed to you, was it?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You decided that you thought you wanted to make a copy of

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

37

 

1 it?

2 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, I object to the use of "you

3 thought." What he was thinking --

4 THE COURT: Overruled.

5 You decided to make a copy of it after reading it; is

6 that it?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

8 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

9 Q. Is there a copy machine in Mr. Gonzalez' office?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You took the letter out of his office -- what time of day

12 was this?

13 A. To the best of my recollection, it would have been in the

14 morning. Between 7 and 11.

15 Q. How far away was the copier machine from his office?

16 A. I would think 30 feet.

17 Q. You went to the copier machine and made a copy?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there other people around?

20 A. Just workers in the halls. Office workers.

21 Q. Did you tell anybody I am making this copy of this letter

22 from Mr. Gonzalez' office?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So you made the copy -- you made one copy?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

38

 

1 Q. Then you walked back to Mr. Gonzalez' office and put the

2 original back on his desk?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you put it in exactly the same place that it was, where

5 you found it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you did that so he wouldn't notice that the letter had

8 been taken out; correct?

9 A. I didn't think that at the time. I just put it back.

10 Q. You are just a neat guy --

11 MS. MILLER: Objection:

12 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I will withdraw it.

13 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

14 Q. You took the copy back out with you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did you put that copy when you took it?

17 A. I probably --

18 Q. Did you take it home?

19 A. Yes. I put it in a file.

20 MS. MILLER: I would ask counsel wait for the witness

21 to answer before he interposes another question.

22 THE COURT: Where did you take the copy after you left

23 the office?

24 THE WITNESS: I put it in a manila folder. I took it

25 home.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

39

 

1 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

2 Q. Did you put it in the same closet that you put the work log

3 which had been lost or a different place?

4 A. I believe it was in the same closet.

5 Q. This letter wasn't thrown out, though?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Sir, you didn't tell Mr. Gonzalez you had made that copy,

8 did you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. It is not your routine practice to take letters off of your

11 supervisor's desk and copy them without his knowledge?

12 A. No.

13 Q. As far as you know, that is not a routine practice at

14 SabreTech for employees to do that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You in fact had never done that before, had you?

17 A. No, I hadn't.

18 Q. You know a man by the name of Bill Drechsler?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Bill Drechsler was the technical representative for Aserca

21 Airlines at SabreTech?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And a technical representative, his function is to

24 represent -- let me strike that.

25 He is there on behalf of the owner of the aircraft?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

40

 

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And he is supposed to be on site making sure the job is

3 being done?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. If issues come up about the plane, about the cost, parts,

6 functions, SabreTech is supposed to run that by Mr. Drechsler;

7 right, the technical representative, about that?

8 A. Do you mind saying that again?

9 Q. I will try.

10 Say for example that while the mechanics on the job

11 are doing work according to the routine work cards they

12 discover something else needs to be done. That does happen?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That is the kind of matter you raise with the technical

15 representative?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And he would either approve that additional work or not

18 approve it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In terms of buying parts, those are the kinds of things you

21 would discuss with him?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You knew Mr. Drechsler at this time; correct?

24 A. From working with him there, yes.

25 Q. And you spoke with him?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

41

 

1 A. Oh, sure.

2 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Drechsler during this period your

3 dissatisfaction with the way things were going on the Aserca

4 project?

5 A. I don't remember making any specific complaints to him.

6 Q. Let me ask you; with regard to this work card that

7 Mr. Gonzalez signed, did you tell Mr. Drechsler about this

8 incident?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did Mr. Drechsler tell you before January 2, the date you

11 took this letter off of Mr. Gonzalez' desk, that he had written

12 a letter to SabreTech about how the work was going?

13 A. I remember he was complaining one day --

14 Q. Listen to my question.

15 Did Mr. Drechsler tell you he was going to be writing

16 a letter to SabreTech about this matter?

17 A. That he was going to.

18 Q. So you knew, sir, that there was going to be a letter from

19 Mr. Drechsler; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in fact, when you went into Mr. Gonzalez' office, you

22 went there looking for that letter; didn't you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Total coincidence?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

42

 

1 Q. In fact this letter is from Mr. Drechsler; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So, you did not expect to find that letter?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Isn't it true you went looking through Mr. Gonzalez' desk

6 to find that letter?

7 A. No.

8 Q. It is not true?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Your reason for making that copy, sir, of that letter, was

11 because you thought you could use it later to hurt

12 Mr. Gonzalez, didn't you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. That letter as far as you knew related to Mr. Gonzalez;

15 didn't it?

16 A. No -- say that again?

17 Q. Did that letter relate to your conflict with Mr. Gonzalez

18 in SabreTech?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You took the letter then, just because you wanted to make a

21 copy of it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That is all, a souvenir?

24 A. I feel --

25 MR. DUNLAP: Objection what he felt.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

43

 

1 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

2 Q. Let me ask the question again.

3 MS. MILLER: There is a question pending to which the

4 government has not made an objection.

5 THE COURT: For what purpose did you make the copy of

6 the letter?

7 THE WITNESS: I felt it was something that needed to

8 be preserved.

9 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

10 Q. You have no knowledge or information that Mr. Gonzalez

11 destroyed that letter after you saw it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have no knowledge or reason to believe that letter had

14 otherwise disappeared; do you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In fact, you have no knowledge of Mr. Gonzalez or anyone

17 else at SabreTech destroying any records relating to this

18 investigation; do you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. The only person, sir, who had a document from SabreTech who

21 destroyed it is you; correct?

22 A. To the best of my knowledge.

23 Q. In fact, sir, are you aware that there was a response from

24 SabreTech to this letter?

25 A. No.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

44

 

1 Q. You don't know?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I want to turn to questions about the turnover log. This

4 is a document that Ms. Miller was asking you about before which

5 you took home and is now missing; correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. This turnover log belonged to SabreTech?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It wasn't your document?

10 A. No.

11 Q. This was present as far as you know on the premises at

12 SabreTech the day of the FBI search?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. The day after the search you saw it in your office?

15 A. In the ValuJet office, right.

16 Q. Where you were working?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The top of the file cabinet?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You saw that the FBI had not removed this document during

21 the search?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. This turnover log, sir as you described is a document in

24 which the shift managers make entries to let the next shift

25 know what work was going on and what they should be doing?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

45

 

1 A. Right.

2 Q. It is the record from one shift to another of what has

3 taken place in the prior shift; correct?

4 A. Could you say that again?

5 Q. It is the record which one shift manager leaves to his

6 successor on the next shift of what has taken place?

7 A. Sure.

8 Q. That is an important communication; isn't it?

9 A. Sure.

10 Q. That is so there is continuity with respect to the work

11 that is done?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. You don't want the next shift redoing work that has been

14 done?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. You want to make sure whatever work they do builds on the

17 prior work?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. You want to make sure they are not doing something

20 different, destructive or cross purposes?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. You were a shift manager; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you yourself made entries in this log?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

46

 

1 Q. This log on the outside cover said ValuJet; correct?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. This log then was the shift management log on the ValuJet

4 project; correct?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Typically a log like this has enough pages for several

7 months worth of entries; correct?

8 A. I don't know about that. I suppose you could fit -- it

9 depends how much you write in it.

10 Q. You know, sir, this turnover log went from the beginning of

11 January, 1996, up through around the time of the crash?

12 A. I believe it did.

13 Q. So it covered about five months?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that is the period of time in which these three ValuJet

16 aircraft were being worked on at SabreTech?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this was the log covering all of that work; correct?

19 You are nodding your head. Is that a yes or are you not

20 nodding your head?

21 MS. MILLER: Objection.

22 THE COURT: It is fair comment.

23 Go ahead. He has to answer audibly.

24 BY THE WITNESS:

25 A. Can you repeat that question?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

47

 

1 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

2 Q. This was the log which was the turnover log for the work

3 being done on the three ValuJet aircraft during that several

4 month period; correct?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. You are aware, sir, this log, this kind of log is also

7 required by the FAA, as a requirement for a repair facility?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This is an important document?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. You decided to take this document home as well; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you did that knowing this was an important document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You did that knowing there was an NTSB investigation going

16 on; correct?

17 A. I don't know what investigations I was aware of at that

18 time.

19 Q. But you knew there were official investigations going on?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Relating to the crash of the ValuJet aircraft?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you knew those investigations in some sense related to

24 the work which had been done on the three other ValuJet

25 aircraft at SabreTech; correct? You knew that?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

48

 

1 A. Yes. I am trying to think about what time that was. Yes,

2 I knew it.

3 Q. And you knew that this document was relevant to that

4 investigation; correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You didn't?

7 You had no particular reason for taking this document

8 home?

9 Do you understand my question?

10 A. No, I don't, really.

11 Q. Did you have a reason for taking this document home?

12 A. Did I have a reason for taking it home.

13 Q. Yes or no.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It wasn't an accident that it got out of the SabreTech

16 facility and wound up in your closet?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You did it knowingly and intentionally?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You did that knowing this was an important document just

21 described?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which didn't belong to you?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. You stuck that document, that turnover log in your closet?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

49

 

1 A. Right.

2 Q. And there came a time several months later when you went to

3 look for it again?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it was missing; correct?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. It had been thrown out?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. This is the same closet where you had kept this other four

10 page letter; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That wasn't missing or thrown out, obviously; correct?

13 MS. MILLER: I would ask that counsel ask one question

14 at a time.

15 BY THE WITNESS:

16 A. That was taken out months before the log book.

17 Q. By you?

18 A. Right. The letter.

19 Q. By the way, several months later you determined that this

20 log book which you took home was missing?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. During the time that you had it at your home, did you ever

23 tell SabreTech that you had it?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever tell anyone at the FAA that you had it?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

50

 

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever tell anyone at the NTSB that you had it?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You kept that to yourself?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you realized that the log book was missing, gone, did

7 you tell that to anyone at that time, to anyone at SabreTech?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you tell it to anyone at the FAA?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you tell it to anyone at the NTSB?

12 A. No.

13 Q. The first time you told it to anyone that it was missing

14 was in the grand jury?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That is your grand jury appearance in July of 1997?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. As you told us when you testified in the grand jury, you

19 were testifying under immunity?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That means anything you say under immunity can't be used

22 against you criminally; correct?

23 A. That is right.

24 Q. And anything you say, leads can't be developed from that to

25 be used against you criminally; correct, that is your

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

51

 

1 understanding?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. Which means that any crimes you confessed to pretty well

4 can't be prosecuted against you; that is your understanding?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. And it was the first time in the grand jury that you told

7 anyone from the United States Government that you had this

8 document that did not belong to you that you knew was important

9 that you took home and that you had destroyed; correct?

10 A. That is right.

11 MS. MILLER: Objection to the compound question.

12 THE COURT: Overruled. He answered the question.

13 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

14 Q. You do know that destruction of evidence during a federal

15 investigation can be a federal offense; don't you; you know

16 that?

17 A. Sure.

18 Q. And you knew that when you made this admission for the

19 first time, that you had done this, that you were protecting

20 yourself from being prosecuted for that?

21 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, I object to questions about

22 admissions for the first time for reasons related to the motion

23 we heard yesterday.

24 THE COURT: The first time officially. Modifying it

25 to the time you told anybody officially about this.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

52

 

1 Ask the question.

2 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I am sorry.

3 THE COURT: To a governmental official.

4 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

5 Q. The first time -- may I ask the question be read back?

6 THE COURT: Rephrase it.

7 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

8 Q. The first time, Mr. DiStefano, you told anyone from the

9 United States, the United States Attorney's Office, the FBI,

10 that you had destroyed this document which was an important

11 document, was in the grand jury when you were testifying under

12 immunity; correct?

13 A. The first time I told them, right.

14 Q. You understood making that admission under immunity would

15 mean it would be very difficult for you to be prosecuted for

16 destroying that evidence; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You knew that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you carefully waited until you were in the grand jury

21 under immunity making that admission; correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You weren't careful about it?

24 A. No.

25 Q. It just happened to come out?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

53

 

1 THE COURT: Can you answer the question?

2 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I can or not.

3 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, I believe we are getting into

4 the area relating to yesterday's motion.

5 THE COURT: When you were in the grand jury, did

6 somebody ask you about the log before you brought it up?

7 Before you told them about it?

8 THE WITNESS: Specifically about the log book, no.

9 THE COURT: They were asking you questions and in the

10 course of that you volunteered that you had taken the log book

11 and that you had lost it or thrown it out?

12 THE WITNESS: I believe they asked me if I had brought

13 along all the documents or anything and I said no, that there

14 was something I didn't bring, and that is how I believe it came

15 out.

16 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

17 Q. Mr. DiStefano, let me ask you to recall this happening.

18 THE COURT: Tell her the page and move on.

19 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

20 Q. Late in your testimony, sir, do you recall there was a

21 recess taken; correct?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. At some time before this recess, the issue of whether you

24 had the log book with you or not came up?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

54

 

1 Q. You went outside the grand jury room?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And Mr. Brigham went outside the grand jury room also?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There was a discussion between you, Mr. Brigham and other

6 persons out there; correct?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. That discussion had to do with the fact that you had

9 destroyed this log book; correct?

10 A. I don't remember the discussion, no.

11 Q. When you went back in after the break, you recall that is

12 when Mr. Brigham began asking you a lot of questions what

13 happened to this log book; correct?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. You did concede, sir, that it was bizarre for you to be

16 taking this log book home; don't you?

17 THE COURT: Hello?

18 MS. MILLER: Objection.

19 THE COURT: Overruled.

20 There was a long pause.

21 Could you turn around a little and face the jury.

22 Was it a bizarre nature.

23 Was it bizarre?

24 THE WITNESS: No.

25 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

55

 

1 Q. Do you recall, sir, Mr. Brigham asked you in the grand jury

2 on July 29, 1997 at page 34.

3 "Question: And did you think it was a bit bizarre

4 you were taking home property of the corporation and placing it

5 in your personal home?

6 "Answer: Yes."

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. You thought it was a bit bizarre?

9 A. All right.

10 Q. You took it, sir, because you feared at that time that

11 somebody else would take it or something would happen to it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That somebody else might lose it or destroy it besides you?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. In fact, sir, except for that document, nobody else lost or

16 destroyed any evidence; is that right?

17 MS. MILLER: Objection, outside the scope of the

18 witness' knowledge.

19 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

20 Q. As far as you know?

21 THE COURT: Within your knowledge, do you know of

22 anybody else losing or destroying any documents related to this

23 crash?

24 THE WITNESS: No.

25 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

56

 

1 Q. Nobody from SabreTech suggested to you that you destroy or

2 lose any documents?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Nobody from SabreTech suggested anything to you other than

5 being completely truthful and honest about this matter and any

6 other matter; right?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you were interviewed by the

9 Fortiers; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The Fortiers is Andre Fortier and Lucette Fortier?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. A husband and wife?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. They are investigators working at the time for SabreTech?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Fortier told you he was a retired FBI agent at the time

18 he talked to you? You didn't know that?

19 MS. MILLER: Objection to relevance.

20 THE COURT: Go ahead.

21 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

22 Q. Isn't it true -- let me ask you.

23 Did you discuss this turnover log with the Fortiers?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You are sure about that?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

57

 

1 A. Sure.

2 Q. You didn't tell them about the turnover log?

3 A. To my recollection, no, I didn't.

4 Q. Do you recall the Fortiers coming to you and asking you --

5 having a discussion about the turnover log -- do you recall

6 their asking you, do you know where the turnover log is?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you have any recollection telling them that they should

9 check Danny Gonzalez's office for the turnover log?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You have no recollection of that at all?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Sir, do you know what an unindicted co-conspirator is?

14 Have you ever heard the term?

15 A. Have I ever heard the term; yes.

16 Q. You know there is a conspiracy charged against these

17 defendants in this case; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the defendants who are charged in that conspiracy are

20 indicted co-conspirators; correct?

21 MS. MILLER: I object to this line of questioning.

22 THE COURT: Sustained. There is no showing he is an

23 expert on criminal procedures.

24 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

25 Q. Sir, the term unindicted co-conspirator has meaning for you

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

58

 

1 personally; doesn't?

2 MS. MILLER: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

5 Q. Sir, several weeks ago --

6 MS. MILLER: Objection, Your Honor. If we need to go

7 to the bench, I would ask to do that.

8 THE COURT: He is here to give us facts that he knows,

9 not his opinions about the indictment or who are categorized as

10 indicted or not indicted. That sort of thing.

11 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I have further questions about his

12 knowledge on this matter.

13 MS. MILLER: I would ask to go to the bench on this.

14 THE COURT: I heard you. Once is enough.

15 Ladies and gentlemen, if you will step into the

16 juryroom, please.

17 (Jury leaves room.)

18 THE COURT: Be seated.

19 Is your point he is an unindicted co-conspirator, yes

20 or no.

21 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Yes.

22 THE COURT: Why don't you ask him. Then you don't

23 have to get into what does he know, what are the procedures,

24 what happens when somebody is indicted or not indicted.

25 MS. MILLER: So the Court may understand and realize

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

59

 

1 the non-relevance to this line of questioning, Mr. DiStefano --

2 the government was ordered to name unindicted co-conspirators.

3 The government sent a letter to defense counsel stating there

4 were three unindicted co-conspirators, one of whom was Mr.

5 DiStefano based on his having acquiesced --

6 THE COURT: What does this have to do with what this

7 man knows? You are telling him now all of this by this

8 argument.

9 MR. MOSCOWITZ: May he step out?

10 THE COURT: You can ask him.

11 MS. MILLER: He is not, Your Honor, that is the point.

12 THE COURT: Does he know that.

13 MS. MILLER: Do you want me to go on in the presence

14 of the witness?

15 THE COURT: No.

16 Are you an unindicted co-conspirator's sitting here

17 today?

18 THE WITNESS: No.

19 THE COURT: That is the end of it. Life goes on.

20 MR. MOSCOWITZ: He was.

21 THE COURT: Then you can prove it. You can go ahead

22 and prove it and it has a bearing on credibility. That is the

23 issue, that is why it is material.

24 Bring in the jury.

25 He doesn't know anything about letters mailed back and

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

60

1 forth or anything else. It is not in his mind. Credibility

2 has to do with what he knows, not what you all have been

3 chatting with each other about or corresponding with each other

4 about.

5 Stick to facts, these are very simple straightforward

6 issues.

7 (Jury present.)

8 THE COURT: Ask your next question.

9 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

10 Q. Mr. DiStefano, a few weeks ago --

11 THE COURT: Ask him the question. The question is

12 quite simple. Are you an unindicted co-conspirator in this

13 case.

14 THE WITNESS: No, I am not.

15 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

16 Q. Were you for a period of about a week to ten days an

17 unindicted co-conspirator in this case?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that was the beginning of this month?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you were informed by the government prosecutors you

22 were an unindicted co-conspirator?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that made you unhappy?

25 THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

61

 

1 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

2 Q. You didn't like being called an unindicted co-conspirator;

3 did you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In fact, you believed the government was wrong --

6 THE COURT: Now you are getting into his beliefs.

7 Solicit facts. You all can argue to the jury.

8 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

9 Q. After being told that the government considered you an

10 unindicted co-conspirator in this conspiracy, you had a further

11 meeting with Ms. Miller; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And at that meeting, you discussed with her, you had a

14 discussion about the fact that you were an unindicted

15 co-conspirator; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you expressed the fact that you didn't like being named

18 an unindicted co-conspirator?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You didn't express that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You didn't express your unhappiness about it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know if anyone on your behalf expressed your

25 unhappiness to the government?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

62

 

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You have no idea?

3 A. No.

4 Q. After this meeting sir -- let me ask you. You are an A&P

5 mechanic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It is your opinion that being an unindicted co-conspirator

8 can have an effect on your license?

9 A. Sure.

10 Q. After this meeting with Mrs. Miller, you were then

11 ununindicted; correct?

12 A. She didn't officially pronounce me or anything like that.

13 I don't know when it came.

14 Q. At some point -- after that?

15 Q. At some point the letter arrived in the mail, it was an

16 official announcement, you were no longer an unindicted

17 co-conspirator?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And that made you happy; correct?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. And that in fact, sir, you regard as a benefit being given

22 to you by the government; correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You don't?

25 MS. MILLER: Asked and answered.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

63

 

1 THE COURT: There is no question pending.

2 MS. MILLER: Mr. Moscowitz repeated "you don't" after

3 the witness answered.

4 THE COURT: I didn't hear him say that.

5 Next question.

6 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

7 Q. By the way, did Mrs. Miller express to you at that meeting

8 any regrets about naming you as an unindicted co-conspirator?

9 THE COURT: You are calling for hearsay testimony.

10 You established the point. You can argue the matters to the

11 jury.

12 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

13 Q. Sir, in the grand jury when you testified back on those two

14 sessions in the summer of 1997, you were of course under oath?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall, sir, being asked in the grand jury whether

17 you had ever been arrested anywhere, any time?

18 MS. MILLER: Objection.

19 BY THE WITNESS:

20 A. I don't recall.

21 THE COURT: That wasn't asked on direct examination.

22 If you are offering it for impeachment you have to develop it

23 with a direct question without reference. You have to develop

24 it within the strictures of the rule with respect to felonies

25 and ten years and all of that.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

64

 

1 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Your Honor --

2 THE COURT: Let's take a brief recess. Ladies and

3 gentlemen, it will be about 15 minutes.

4 You may step outside as well, sir.

5 (Jury leaves room.)

6 (Witness leaves room.)

7 THE COURT: Be seated.

8 I sense it is the thrust of your question to impeach

9 him with a statement he has made in the grand jury without

10 giving him the opportunity to state whatever it is you are

11 seeking to impeach him with by a truthful answer before this

12 jury. He can't do it.

13 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Here is the dilemma. He in fact has

14 an arrest record.

15 THE COURT: You have to ask him about that if it is

16 within the parameters of the rule which says a felony

17 conviction, whatever it is lasts eight years, ten years, I

18 forget the rule. If he says yes, that ends the inquiry.

19 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I don't believe I can appropriately

20 ask him about that to impeach him with that arrest because I

21 understand that is not impeachable. What is impeachable, Your

22 Honor, is the fact that he lied about his arrest record before

23 the grand jury.

24 THE COURT: What was the arrest record?

25 MR. MOSCOWITZ: He was arrested and convicted in the

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

65

 

1 military. He was court martialed in the military for

2 misappropriation of an aircraft and Mr. Brigham did not ask him

3 whether he had any convictions. He asked him if he had any

4 arrests anywhere any time for anything and he said no.

5 Again, had he not been asked that question I would not

6 be seeking to impeach him with his conviction, but the fact he

7 was asked the question and perjured himself about it is what is

8 relevant to the jury assessing his credibility.

9 THE COURT: When did this matter occur?

10 MR. MOSCOWITZ: In the late 1970s, 1978.

11 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, co-counsel give me the page

12 number, please?

13 MR. MOSCOWITZ: It is on grand jury testimony July

14 29 page 67.

15 MS. MILLER: Obviously the arrest itself is not

16 admissible.

17 THE COURT: Unless he lied about it.

18 MS. MILLER: That is why I want to look at the

19 reference, Your Honor.

20 The question is, any criminal history, any arrests or

21 anything. No. That would include DUI, anything along those

22 lines? No.

23 THE COURT:

24 MS. MILLER: If the Court considers something untrue

25 in the grand jury is relevant to his testimony here, that would

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

66

 

1 be a relevant question.

2 THE COURT: It is not a question at this point at

3 least. What the Court chooses to label it, what we have here,

4 apparently is a direct statement asked of a witness under oath

5 in an official court proceeding. The answer to it, according

6 to the information that Mr. Moscowitz has developed in his

7 investigation of this case would indicate that he did not give

8 a truthful answer to that question.

9 It achieves a little more significance I guess with

10 the follow-up question by the prosecutor at the time Mr.

11 Brigham, where he says, we are even talking about DWI and he

12 said no.

13 Certainly he might not remember a DWI but I guess he

14 would remember stealing an airplane, I guess. It would look

15 like it is not just an innocent lapse of memory and it would

16 appear to be an untruthful answer and an untruthful answer

17 given in an official proceeding where a person is under oath is

18 proper subject of cross examination to show if one can he is

19 being untruthful today at this proceeding.

20 Normally he would have to be given the opportunity to

21 answer truthfully if you just mentioned arrest but this is an

22 answer again, just like an answer given in a trial whether it

23 is a transcript of a court martial or an official proceeding.

24 The objection is overruled. You will be permitted to

25 ask and do so in the process and manner which you originally

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

67

 

1 started to ask the question.

2 We will take a brief recess.

3 (Thereupon a brief recess was taken, after which the

4 following proceedings were had.)

5 (Open court. Jury not present.)

6 THE COURT: Are we ready?

7 MR. MOSCOWITZ: We have gotten notice this morning

8 of ex-parte submissions the government has made to Your Honor.

9 We of course don't know what they are. Our concern is whatever

10 it is affects what we are doing and our examination of these

11 witnesses. We think it is a little bit late for these type of

12 submissions since the trial has started.

13 THE COURT: And you don't have any confidence in the

14 Court to make sure you are advised of these things and your

15 rights are fully protected so you want to bring it up?

16 MR. MOSCOWITZ: We have full confidence.

17 THE COURT: I would think so.

18 When I came out just now I was told there was an

19 ex-parte motion for my consideration filed by the government.

20 I said hold it, lay it aside and I will deal with it in due

21 course. My general philosophy, of course, my usual procedure,

22 of course, is that I don't consider anything at all prior to,

23 during or after the trial, from anyone unless it involves

24 safety of individuals, the usual two or three exceptions you

25 all know about. You all understand what I am referring to,

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

68

 

1 somebody could get killed, shot or murdered, something like

2 that.

3 I haven't looked at it. I will deal with it later. I

4 have a lot of things to deal with right now. If I decide to

5 look at it, I will let you know or I will deal with it at the

6 end of the day.

7 Are we ready for the jury?

8 While I am taking up matters with you, chief Judge

9 Davis sent out a memorandum to all of us today regarding the

10 legal position of the administrative office of the U.S. courts

11 regarding work and trials and so on Friday after Thursday of

12 Thanksgiving. In essence, it says that each Judge should make

13 his or her own determination whether they will hold court. Any

14 Judge working on the Friday after Thanksgiving of this year

15 will receive such support as required by the various

16 departments. The department heads should check with each Judge

17 to make sure this is done. All duty Judge matters will be

18 taken care of. The Court will be open for such work as the

19 judges and the department heads may decide is appropriate.

20 It had been my intention to continue forward with this

21 case on the day after Thanksgiving, but I ask Ms. Kramerman to

22 speak to the jury when I got this memorandum when it came in at

23 10:14 this morning to ask the jurors if any of them had made

24 out of town plans or anything of the sort. One of them has.

25 One of the jurors needs to be out of town which seems to -- if

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

69

 

1 they had not brought this matter up, they may have assumed the

2 Court was closed, under the erroneous assumption at least in

3 this division, we are not normally closed except for those

4 holidays that are outlined in that letter about religious

5 holidays and/or official holidays.

6 Given that factor, I guess that probably it would be

7 well for us not to attempt to be on trial or if we are, we know

8 we are going to lose the juror, I suppose regrettably because I

9 see us sitting here Christmas week -- who is the gentleman from

10 The New York Times, Mr. Berg, wrote an article or somebody

11 faxed me an article -- is there a Mr. Berg in the courtroom?

12 Mr. Berg is a reporter for the New York Times, apparently and

13 he wrote an article. I guess he got it from a synopsis

14 forwarded to him by an AP reporter and transmitted like the

15 keys in the Avis parking ad you have all seen, so I guess by

16 the time got to the New York Times it got distilled somewhat

17 but I wouldn't want to keep Mr. Berg here Christmas week nor

18 any of the rest of you. I am hopeful we will finish. That is

19 why I would like to keep this trial moving forward with good

20 and efficient momentum; but I guess, bearing in mind one of the

21 jurors has made out of town plans to be gone -- what are your

22 respective positions with respect to what we should do on

23 Friday?

24 MR. MOSCOWITZ: It is at the Court's discretion.

25 THE COURT: I am asking for a suggestion.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

70

 

1 MS. MILLER: I think we would all like to know which

2 juror.

3 THE COURT: We got our morning chuckle out of the way.

4 What is your position?

5 MS. MILLER: We also stand at the Court's pleasure. I

6 will tell you travel arrangement for any out of town witnesses

7 are more complicated for that day.

8 THE COURT: That is true too.

9 Unless there is some objection. I am hesitant to lose

10 a juror in the first four or five days of trial -- we are

11 talking next week.

12 I am reluctant to lose anybody. We have four

13 alternates but we don't know when the flu is going to strike

14 the panel.

15 We will make a decision now that we will not be in

16 session the day after Thanksgiving.

17 The other matter I wish to bring to your attention

18 during the recess one of the jurors wanted to go downstairs.

19 The marshal of course went with him or her, whoever it was and

20 with the usual instructions not to let anybody talk to the

21 jury. The jury wanted to go down to purchase some aspirin or

22 Tums and the marshal went with him or her.

23 COURT SECURITY OFFICER: It was two gentlemen and one

24 lady.

25 THE COURT: It is early in the morning for that to be

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

71

 

1 occurring.

2 In any event, if you saw the marshal going out with

3 two jurors down the hallway, don't be disturbed. The marshals'

4 instructions were to not let anybody speak to them or they

5 speak to anybody except about the routine matter for what they

6 were going for and to go with them and bring it back and it was

7 accomplished.

8 Bring in the jury.

9 Would you ask the witness to come back as well.

10 (Jury present.)

11 Thereupon --

12

13 CHRISTOPHER M. DISTEFANO,

14 called as a witness herein, having been previously duly sworn,

15 was examined and testified further as follows:

16 THE COURT: You may proceed.

17 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ: (Continuing.)

18 Q. Mr. DiStefano, when you testified before the grand jury,

19 you were under oath?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The same oath you took here in court today?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Do you recall, sir, towards the end of the questioning on

24 the second occasion, July 29, 1997, Mr. Brigham asked you

25 whether you had any criminal history, any arrest or anything

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

72

 

1 and you answered, no; do you recall that?

2 A. I don't recall it.

3 Q. Would you like me to show it to you, sir?

4 A. Sure.

5 Q. I will read it to you. The question was.

6 "Question: Any criminal history, any arrest or

7 anything?

8 "Answer: No.

9 "Question: That would include DUIs, anything along

10 those lines.

11 "Answer: No, no."

12 There were three nos to those questions?

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. Were those answers true, sir?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In fact you have been arrested; correct?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And in fact you have a conviction in the military; right?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. So under oath, sir, you gave an untrue answer about your

21 criminal record; correct?

22 A. Right.

23 MR. MOSCOWITZ: No further questions, Your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Mr. Dunlap.

25 CROSS EXAMINATION

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

73

 

1 BY MR. DUNLAP:

2 Q. Good morning. When an aircraft arrives at a facility or

3 SabreTech, the first thing that is done is an induction on the

4 plane; is that correct?

5 A. I don't know what you mean by induction.

6 Q. An engine run up. They run the engines up?

7 A. You try to do as many ops checks as you can.

8 Q. That is before the plane comes in the hangar?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I believe you testified that you have seen Danny do run ups

11 on planes?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. He did the run up on 705, the first Aserca plane, did he

14 not?

15 A. I couldn't tell you.

16 Q. If the paperwork reflects he did on 705, you wouldn't

17 disagree?

18 THE COURT: He doesn't know. The paperwork will be in

19 evidence. Stick with what he knows.

20 BY MR. DUNLAP:

21 Q. In any event, Danny knows how to do run ups?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The events you described in the hangar, where you had a

24 confrontation and disagreement with Danny, the Aserca aircraft

25 705 was in the hangar at that point?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

74

 

1 A. Aircraft 705?

2 Q. I am sorry, I meant 720.

3 A. Aircraft 720, as I recall it was at the southwest corner in

4 the hangar.

5 MR. DUNLAP: Thank you. No further questions.

6 THE COURT: Ms. Moscowitz?

7 MS. MOSCOWITZ: No thank you, Your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Redirect.

9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

10 BY MS. MILLER:

11 Q. Mr. DiStefano, you were asked on cross examine whether you

12 were in charge of the Aserca project; do you recall that

13 question?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you follow through on the entire Aserca project?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When did you stop being in charge of the Aserca project?

18 MR. DUNLAP: Objection. Asked and answered.

19 THE COURT: It is clear it happened after he came back

20 from vacation time after the confrontation with Mr. Gonzalez

21 and he was transferred to the other supervisor.

22 Q. Following the meeting you had with managers including Danny

23 Gonzalez, Mr. DiStefano, were there any further permission you

24 needed in order to implement your changes?

25 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

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1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 MS. MILLER: I am sorry?

3 THE COURT: It is an opinion question. What do you

4 think about that, what was your idea? It is an open ended

5 opinion question. Did you get any further permission after

6 that period of time; and the answer is no; is that right?

7 Can you turn around and face the jury?

8 THE WITNESS: That is right, sir.

9 THE COURT: Next question.

10 BY MS. MILLER:

11 Q. Mr. DiStefano, what was different about placing the cards

12 horizontally rather than vertically?

13 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection. I think this was

14 covered. It is not redirect.

15 THE COURT: The issue that the jury is going to

16 determine is not whether one plan was better than the other

17 plan about how to place the cards on the wall. The issue that

18 you have to determine is whether or not this confrontation took

19 place and if so whether it is material to some of the other

20 issues. It doesn't matter who had a good idea or bad idea.

21 I didn't let Mr. Moscowitz get into it. It doesn't

22 matter who was right or wrong. The question was if they had an

23 argument and what was said.

24 BY MS. MILLER:

25 Q. What was said in the arguments with regard to the array of

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 the cards?

2 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, asked and answered.

3 THE COURT: Move directly into what it is. He has

4 gone through every word that was said and perhaps if there is

5 something that needs clarification, go into it by all means.

6 MS. MILLER: I will move to a different point, Your

7 Honor.

8 THE COURT: All right.

9 BY MS. MILLER:

10 Q. When you met with the Fortiers following the crash, what if

11 anything did you report concerning Aserca Airlines?

12 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, beyond the scope.

13 MR. MOSCOWITZ: It is hearsay.

14 THE COURT: He was asked about his meeting with

15 Mr. Fortier and he was taken through a series of questions

16 about the law and whether or not he told Mr. Fortier about the

17 law. So this question deals with what did you tell Mr. Fortier

18 about the Aserca matter?

19 MS. MILLER: Yes, sir.

20 THE COURT: I think that is beyond the scope of what

21 was covered on cross examination. The objection is sustained.

22 You may inquire of course into anything dealing with

23 he said to Mr. Fortier about the law.

24 BY MS. MILLER:

25 Q. Mr. DiStefano, when was the letter removed, the Drechsler

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1 letter removed from the closet?

2 A. It would have been a day or two after my meeting with the

3 Fortiers.

4 Q. What did you do with the Drechsler letter at that point?

5 A. Made some copies of it and I believe I gave one to Mr.

6 Fortier.

7 Q. Do you recall in cross examination being referred to a

8 point in your grand jury testimony when you took a break and

9 went outside then returned to the grand jury?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. With whom did you meet during that break in the presence of

12 Mr. Brigham?

13 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Overruled.

15 You may state who you met with.

16 BY THE WITNESS:

17 A. As I recall -- no, I don't recall.

18 THE COURT: Next question.

19 BY MS. MILLER:

20 Q. Mr. DiStefano, you were asked several questions about being

21 an unindicted co-conspirator; do you recall that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you review any letters in that regard?

24 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.

25 Q. I am handing you a copy of what I am marking --

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1 MS. MILLER: May I walk to the Court's bench and see

2 if there are any stickers there?

3 I am marking this exhibit as Government's Exhibit 2M

4 and handing it to the witness and ask if you recognize it.

5 A. Yes, ma'am, I do.

6 Q. Have you previously seen that letter?

7 A. Not until it was mailed to me.

8 Q. Who mailed it to you?

9 A. My lawyer.

10 Q. Does it relate to this topic of unindicted or --

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. MILLER: The government offers it.

13 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 BY MS. MILLER:

16 Q. Do you recall meeting at the U.S. Attorney's Office on

17 November 2, 1999?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall a discussion of your unindicted

20 co-conspirator status?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall being told why you had been named an

23 unindicted co-conspirator?

24 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

25 THE COURT: Leading. Sustained.

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1 BY MS. MILLER:

2 Q. What do you recall being said in that regard?

3 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection. It calls for hearsay.

4 THE COURT: It is hearsay. The objection is

5 sustained.

6 MS. MILLER: May I be heard?

7 THE COURT: He can say what he said but he can't say

8 what anybody else said. Sustained to that extent.

9 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, the cross examination --

10 THE COURT: I have ruled.

11 Your next question, please.

12 BY MS. MILLER:

13 Q. What did you say at that meeting with regard to your

14 unindicted co-conspirator status?

15 A. That my name was nowhere on the papers.

16 Q. Which papers were you referring to?

17 A. To the work order 716HO1LWOO4.

18 Q. I am handing you Government's Exhibit 2. Is that the

19 document you are talking about?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you point to anything specific on that document as not

22 being your name?

23 A. On the lower left-hand corner there are two sets of

24 initials and I said those weren't mine.

25 Q. What is that set of initials that appears on that

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1 document --

2 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection. Beyond the scope of the

3 cross, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Sustained.

5 He pointed out the initials were not his on the

6 document. You can argue this to the jury later. Let's move

7 on.

8 BY MS. MILLER:

9 Q. Mr. DiStefano at the meeting of November 2, 1999, what if

10 anything did you tell the government about any prior arrest you

11 may have had?

12 A. I told him I had a court martial in the military.

13 Q. Was that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. MILLER: No further questions, Your Honor.

16 THE COURT: You may step down.

17 (Witness excused.)

18 THE COURT: Call your next witness.

19 MS. MILLER: The government calls William Drechsler.

20 Thereupon - -

21

22 WILLIAM DRECHSLER,

23 called as a witness by the Government, having been first duly

24 sworn, testified as follows:

25 THE COURT: State your name and spell your last name

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1 for the record.

2 THE WITNESS: William Drechsler, D R E C H S L E R.

3 MS. MILLER: May I ask the witness to close the door

4 to the jury box?

5 THE COURT: All right.

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION

7 BY MS. MILLER:

8 Q. Sir, what is your occupation?

9 A. I am the President of Technical Aviation Inc.

10 Q. Could you keep your voice up, please so our court reporter

11 and everyone can hear you.

12 What is Technical Aviation, Inc.?

13 A. It is an aviation consulting company in Burnsville,

14 Minnesota.

15 Q. Whom does it consist of?

16 A. Currently myself only.

17 Q. What is the business of Technical Aviation, Inc.?

18 A. Providing service to lending companies, banks, on

19 transferring airplanes and modification of certain types of

20 airplanes.

21 Q. Do you hold any licenses or certificates with regard to the

22 aviation industry?

23 A. I hold an air frame and power plant engineering license.

24 Q. How long have you held that license?

25 A. Since 1995.

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1 Q. Mr. Drechsler, what if any, is the history briefly of your

2 association with the DC-9 aircraft?

3 A. I went to McDonnell-Douglas school in 1966 as an airline

4 yes and we received our first DC-9 in 1966 and I have been with

5 the DC-9 ever since.

6 Q. Mr. Drechsler, have you been a vice president of

7 maintenance for any airline companies?

8 A. Yes, two.

9 Q. What was the first?

10 A. The first one was Republic Airlines in Minneapolis.

11 Q. When did you leave that position?

12 A. In August of 1983, just prior to the merger to Northwest.

13 Q. What was your job after that?

14 A. I started my own company which was Technical Aviation.

15 Q. Did you move back into employment as opposed to independent

16 work at a point thereafter?

17 A. I did on two occasions. I became President and COO of

18 Standard Aero which was a 145 repair station in Phoenix,

19 Arizona. It was a facility that we had as an airline facility

20 being operated by Standard Aero.

21 Q. What are you referring to when you say a 145 repair

22 station?

23 A. That was the FAA type license that was given to that

24 facility.

25 Q. What was the second time that you served as a vice

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 president of maintenance?

2 A. I served as a vice president of maintenance for Midway

3 Airlines in Chicago.

4 Q. During what years?

5 A. 1987 to 1991.

6 Q. What caused you to leave Midway?

7 A. Midway ceased operations through Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

8 Q. At or about the time that Midway went into bankruptcy, did

9 you have any role with regard to the selling of their aircraft?

10 A. I did. I was involved in the sale of several of the

11 aircraft and that is how I became familiar with Aserca Airlines

12 because I sold an airplane to them and provided certain

13 maintenance services for them and physically took the airplane

14 to Venezuela for them.

15 Q. What is Aserca Airlines?

16 A. Aserca Airlines is a passenger carrier operation basically

17 based in Valencia which is approximately 50 miles from Caracas,

18 and it provides first class airline service -- all the seats in

19 the airline are first class with the exception of one air plane

20 and one airplane is all tourist. It provides service to the

21 islands for vacation.

22 Q. What model planes does Aserca have?

23 A. All DC-9, the 30 series.

24 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Drechsler, when you were

25 engaged -- when you were hired or engaged for a job directly by

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1 Aserca Airlines?

2 A. Yes. On probably three occasions.

3 Q. Did any of them involve an entity known as Dyn-Air Tech of

4 Florida or SabreTech, Inc.?

5 A. Yes. The last one.

6 Q. Would you please tell us what that engagement was?

7 A. I was asked by the vice president of maintenance Jesus Mora

8 to come to Miami for a visit with him, at that time it was

9 still Dyn-Air, and we were to bring up two DC-9s 30 series from

10 Venezuela that needed their C check inspections. One needed a

11 paint job. One needed an engine change and various and sundry

12 small modifications on it.

13 Q. Do you remember the numbers of these aircraft?

14 A. Yes, I do. The very first airplane that came up was the

15 first airplane that I had brought down to Aserca. It is

16 YV705C as their call letters and the second airplane was

17 YV720 Charlie.

18 MS. MILLER: If I may approach the witness?

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 BY MS. MILLER:

21 Q. I am showing you two large photographs previously received

22 in evidence as Government Exhibits 2D and 2E and ask you if you

23 recognize either of the photographs?

24 A. It is aircraft YV720 Charlie a DC-9, 30. The airline is a

25 charter airline. It has a palm tree on it for Aruba and Sun

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

85

 

1 Seaescape.

2 Q. The one you recognize is 2D; is that right, Mr. Drechsler?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is it you were engaged to do with regard to the

5 aircraft, Mr. Drechsler?

6 A. I was engaged -- the engine that we were to replace on the

7 airplane was at a repair facility -- it was at TWA Airlines in

8 Kansas City. I was to coordinate the finish of that repair on

9 that engine in Kansas City, get it shipped down to Miami to

10 place it on the airplane. When we brought up the 705, charter

11 airplane from Venezuela, it had both first class and coach

12 seats in it. They wanted all coach seats put in the airplane

13 for a tourist configuration. I had to get seats readied and

14 shipped in for that. I had to get a floor plan, an approved

15 floor plan layout for the airplane, an engineering drawing to

16 accomplish that work for the final weight and balance on the

17 airplane after it was reconfigured, and my primary function at

18 Dyn-Air SabreTech was to monitor the progress of the work,

19 approve and sign the purchase requirements for the airplane for

20 the material and to approve the labor on the non-routine work

21 that was required on the airplanes.

22 Q. Is there a term that refers to the kind of role that you

23 were playing?

24 A. Technical representative.

25 Q. Is that also sometimes called a tech rep?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

86

 

1 A. Right.

2 Q. During what period of time did you serve as a tech rep for

3 Aserca Airlines located at Dyn-Air Tech of Florida or

4 SabreTech?

5 A. December 1995 to March of 1996.

6 Q. Approximately which aircraft were being worked on at which

7 segments at that time?

8 A. The very first airplane we brought up was YV705 Charlie,

9 the tourist airplane. That was the first airplane in. We had

10 planned to overlap the airplanes approximately three to five

11 days, but as it worked out 705 became late in redelivery, so

12 there was a greater than the three to five day overlap;

13 probably about two weeks or so.

14 Q. Let me ask you to answer this question yes or no if you

15 can. Did you state to anyone at Dyn-Air Tech of Florida your

16 concerns over the lateness of 705?

17 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, relevance.

18 THE COURT: Overruled.

19 You may answer the question.

20 BY THE WITNESS:

21 BY MS. MILLER:

22 Q. I am just asking you for a yes or no at this point.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. To whom did you state such concerns?

25 MR. DUNLAP: Relevance, Your Honor.

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1 THE COURT: Overruled.

2 You may answer the question.

3 A. I talked to the president of SabreTech about the situation.

4 BY MS. MILLER:

5 Q. Who is that?

6 A. Mr. Galindo.

7 Q. Did you talk to anyone else?

8 A. I talked to the vice president of marketing about it and I

9 wrote a letter.

10 Q. To whom did you send that letter?

11 A. To the vice president of marketing who we dealt with.

12 Q. Mr. Drechsler, I am handing you a document previously

13 marked as Government's Exhibit 2F and I would ask if you

14 recognize that document?

15 A. That is my handwriting.

16 Q. Does this bear some relationship to the letter you just

17 testified about?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Is that the letter?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 MS. MILLER: The government offers 2F into evidence.

22 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, hearsay.

23 THE COURT: It is admitted into evidence over

24 objection. Government's 2F.

25 (A document was received in

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

88

 

1 evidence as Government's Exhibit 2F.)

2 BY MS. MILLER:

3 Q. Mr. Drechsler, in that letter -- withdrawn.

4 In the course of your service as a technical

5 representative, did you have contact with is the vice president

6 of maintenance?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was the vice president of maintenance at SabreTech

9 and/or Dyn-Air Tech of Florida while you were tech rep there?

10 A. Mr. Gonzalez.

11 Q. Do you see Mr. Gonzalez in the courtroom today?

12 MR. DUNLAP: Stipulate his identification, Your Honor.

13 BY THE WITNESS:

14 A. Yes.

15 THE COURT: Let the record reflect he has identified

16 Mr. Gonzalez.

17 BY MS. MILLER:

18 Q. How frequent was your contact with Mr. Gonzalez?

19 A. He was the only one I could talk to eventually, so we met

20 on the problems on the airplane several times.

21 Q. What did you tell him were the problems with 705?

22 A. I don't remember specifically telling him what the problems

23 were on 705 as much as 720.

24 Q. What did you tell him were the problems on 720?

25 A. My concerns on 720, number one, was the lateness of the

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

89

 

1 airplane and number two, the condition of the airplane prior to

2 the test flight and the condition of the airplane during the

3 flight.

4 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, although it is somewhat

5 lengthy, Exhibit 2F is in Mr. Drechsler's handwriting,

6 therefore I would ask that he be able to read it out loud so we

7 may properly decipher it.

8 THE COURT: Is it not legible?

9 You can ask him about any specifics.

10 MS. MILLER: Let me do that, Your Honor.

11 BY MS. MILLER:

12 Q. Mr. Drechsler, turning your attention to page 2 of the

13 letter and if you want to look over your shoulder at the

14 monitor --

15 THE COURT: Or if he has a copy there.

16 MS. MILLER: I will use the pointer.

17 THE COURT: Go ahead.

18 BY MS. MILLER:

19 Q. Can you tell us what if any concerns you state in this

20 letter and I am pointing to page 2, the bottom half, with

21 regard to Dyn-Air's paperwork?

22 THE COURT: Why don't you in your own words tell the

23 jury what concerns you had about the paperwork and if there is

24 anything left out Ms. Miller can come back.

25 At the time of your independence memory.

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1 BY THE WITNESS:

2 A. My concern on the airplane was, we were to get an airplane

3 back or planned on getting the airplane back in 14 days. That

4 is when we originally went in there and had our meeting and I

5 believe my letter says 31 days when we finally ended up with

6 the airplane; but after the first airplane was delivered,

7 released for flight. I flew on it, test flown, picked up by

8 the crew, flown back to Venezuela to put in service, I received

9 a phone call in my office from --

10 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, hearsay.

11 BY MS. MILLER:

12 Q. Who was the phone call from? Do you remember the person?

13 A. No, I do not.

14 That --

15 Q. Let me ask you not to tell us what was said in the

16 telephone call. If you want to tell us what you did as a

17 result of the telephone call, I would ask you to continue your

18 answer with that.

19 A. Okay.

20 I told the person on the -- in the work control center

21 to bring up the documents that were not completed on the

22 airplane so I could get them back to Venezuela and we could get

23 that work accomplished and signed off so the airplane was

24 complete and whole.

25 Q. What if anything did you state in your letter Mr. Drechsler

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1 and if it is easier for you to read the letter itself rather

2 than the screen, please take it out of the sleeve, concerning

3 any paperwork for work that was not accomplished?

4 A. My letter states we have Dyn-Air paperwork open and the

5 airplane is delivered. We have Dyn-Air paperwork showing work

6 completed and inspected and not accomplished. We have Dyn-Air

7 paperwork showing approval to accomplish signed off yet no work

8 done on the aircraft.

9 Q. Mr. Drechsler, you told us there came a time you dealt only

10 with Danny Gonzalez; do you recall that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. How did it come about you dealt only with Danny Gonzalez?

13 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, relevance.

14 THE COURT: Yes.

15 Did you talk to anybody else at Dyn-Air or SabreTech

16 about this particular airplane after a certain time, except

17 Mr. Gonzalez?

18 Did there come a time you only talked to Mr. Gonzalez?

19 THE WITNESS: There came a time when I would ask the

20 supervisor on the project on my airplane, 720, would tell me --

21 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, hearsay.

22 THE COURT: Overruled. This is an employee of

23 SabreTech; is that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: That is correct. He would tell me he

25 could give me no information, that any information on the

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 airplane I would have to get that from Danny Gonzalez, so I had

2 to go see Danny.

3 THE COURT: Then you went and saw Danny and what did

4 Danny tell you?

5 THE WITNESS: Danny would try to answer my questions.

6 THE COURT: Did he do so? Did he answer your

7 questions?

8 THE WITNESS: We solved most of the problems.

9 THE COURT: Then the airplane was returned ultimately?

10 THE WITNESS: Ultimately.

11 THE COURT: Was it returned late?

12 THE WITNESS: Late.

13 THE COURT: How late, approximately?

14 THE WITNESS: Probably three to four weeks.

15 THE COURT: Ms. Miller.

16 BY MS. MILLER:

17 Q. Mr. Drechsler, are you familiar with something called the

18 ice protection system of a DC-9?

19 A. I am.

20 Q. I am showing you what has previously been received in

21 evidence as Government's Exhibit 6, and I would ask if you have

22 previously examined that work card for the ice protection

23 system on a DC-9?

24 A. I have.

25 Q. Are you familiar with that particular work task?

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1 A. I am.

2 Q. Have you yourself performed that particular work task?

3 A. I have.

4 Q. Approximately how many times?

5 A. Probably 20 to 25 times as manager of DC-9 maintenance.

6 Q. What is the ice protection system?

7 A. It is a system that draws 13 stage bleeder valve off the

8 engines and inducted into the unpressurized area of the tail

9 and inducted to the leading edges of the wings and the tail to

10 prevent ice build up on the wings and on the tail and there is

11 a system that strictly deices the engine nose cowl and bullet

12 itself.

13 Q. What is the nature of the work that is described on work

14 card, the ice protection system work card in front of you as

15 Exhibit 2?

16 A. This is a functional check.

17 Q. What are you referring to when you say functional check?

18 A. This is the factory, manufacturers work card to be followed

19 and specifically tells you what tools to use and the steps to

20 do it in.

21 Q. What does the work consist of?

22 A. It consists of testing and timing, the opening and closing

23 of the valves and the operation of the tail deicer timer.

24 Q. Is it a job to be done by one person or more than one

25 person?

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1 A. Normally it is a two person job. One person has to be in

2 the cockpit selecting the switches and timing it, normally

3 timing the unit and also placing the airplane in a correct mode

4 of flight, either on ground mode or air mode and one person is

5 either out in the tail section of the airplane where the

6 physical valve is to be tested or in the wing in the case of

7 the wings if it is that area.

8 Q. Does the test require any special equipment?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. What is the equipment that is required?

11 A. It calls for a pneumatic, specialized pneumatic test from

12 the manufacturer.

13 Q. What does it look like, size, shape?

14 A. It is like a small suitcase. It is basically a small

15 suitcase and inside it has some pressure indicators, hoses,

16 connectors and a charge bottle.

17 Q. Are there inspection items required to be signed off on the

18 job as reflected on the work card before you as Exhibit 2?

19 A. Yes, there are.

20 Q. Are they executed in that example of the work card?

21 A. They are.

22 Q. Are they dated?

23 A. One is.

24 Q. What is the date?

25 A. 12/28/98.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

95

 

1 Q. What is the nature of the inspection items on Exhibit 2?

2 A. It is basically removing the test equipment from the

3 particular valve that is being tested and the reinstallation of

4 the caps and plugs that go back in the access ports.

5 Q. What if any inspection is there that the work has actually

6 been done?

7 A. Well, there is a mechanic sign off on the work.

8 Q. Approximately how long does this job take two people to do?

9 A. Normally -- it depends a little on the airplane. If it has

10 a stairs in the back or non-staired or has an extra fuel tank

11 so you have a different access to the wing abnormal pressure

12 switch; but I would say it is about six lapse hours.

13 Q. On the work card you have before you, are there any items

14 marked not applicable?

15 A. Yes, there are.

16 Q. What is marked not applicable if you could summarize for

17 us?

18 A. A part of the test is marked NA, not applicable, due to the

19 type of switching that was in that particular airplane.

20 Q. With that item being not applicable, how long would the

21 remaining work on that work card take two people to do?

22 A. Probably four hours.

23 MS. MILLER: No further questions for Mr. Drechsler.

24 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I am not going to waive my questions

25 but Mr. Dunlap will go first if that is okay.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

96

 

1 THE COURT: Mr. Dunlap.

2 CROSS EXAMINATION

3 BY MR. DUNLAP:

4 Q. Mr. Drechsler, the letter you read from that you sent on

5 January 2.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Ms. Miller directed your attention to a section of it where

8 you were complaining about the handling of the paperwork?

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. She asked you to read from there and you discussed that

11 section?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you got back to Venezuela with that plane, I think you

14 indicated you had to send some paper back up because of this

15 problem to get it executed properly?

16 A. In my view, yes.

17 Q. The comments in your letter there, they reflect a problem

18 with the paperwork and not a question whether the work

19 underlying the paperwork had been done; is that right?

20 A. Well, we have Dyn-air paperwork showing work completed and

21 inspected and not accomplished on the airplane, yes.

22 Q. In the grand jury you were asked what that meant; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you explained it was simply the order of doing things

25 and you gave a reference of bringing in a company east coast

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

97

 

1 tanks --

2 MS. MILLER: Objection. It is not a proper form of

3 impeachment.

4 THE COURT: This is cross examination.

5 MS. MILLER: It is not a proper form of impeachment.

6 He can't simply introduce grand jury testimony.

7 THE COURT: He is asking on cross examination,

8 inquiring what he gave on direct examination about his

9 expertise of being the supervisor on the job. I think he is

10 entitled to go into that.

11 MS. MILLER: He was referencing what he said in grand

12 jury and paraphrasing it and I don't believe that is a

13 proper --

14 THE COURT: All right.

15 Ask him the question directly.

16 BY MR. DUNLAP:

17 Q. You have no specific complaint about any work that wasn't

18 done on that airplane?

19 A. Would you repeat the question?

20 Q. You have no specific task you allege wasn't done on that

21 plane?

22 A. We do on the first airplane that went to Venezuela.

23 Q. What task?

24 A. There were two tasks that we had to send back down there.

25 They are minor tasks but they were not accomplished.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 Q. What were they?

2 A. I don't recall them. I don't have them here with me.

3 Q. Were you asked to be prepared to testify regarding this

4 letter?

5 A. No, I was not.

6 Q. When you were asked what you meant when you said showing

7 work that was completed and inspected and not accomplished by

8 Ms. Heck in the grand jury, do you recall what you told her?

9 THE COURT: This wasn't drawn out on direct anything

10 in the grand jury. Ask him the direct questions about whatever

11 it is now.

12 He doesn't recall. There were two minor items they

13 had to do the work.

14 BY MR. DUNLAP:

15 Q. You do not recall what they were?

16 A. No, I can't recall the individual items. I cannot give you

17 a card number or show you an open piece of paper.

18 Q. Did you report them to your boss Fernando -- excuse me,

19 Jesus Mora?

20 THE COURT: Did you tell the owners about these two

21 minor items?

22 THE WITNESS: I did.

23 BY MR. DUNLAP:

24 Q. Did you tell Jesus Mora about the problems?

25 A. We discussed it. I didn't want the two airplanes in there.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 Q. You told him there were pieces of work that wasn't

2 accomplished?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But you don't remember what they are?

5 A. No, I can't give you a piece of paper.

6 Q. I am not asking for a piece of paper --

7 THE COURT: I think he covered it. He doesn't

8 remember. Let's move on.

9 BY MR. DUNLAP:

10 Q. Can you tell us what a predock is?

11 A. A predock is the first portion of the aircraft inspection.

12 That is where the airplane is brought in from service. It is

13 partially opened to prepare the airplane for the check and

14 allow it to be washed, areas that are oily, dirty, greasy to be

15 washed so the proper inspection in those areas could be

16 accomplished, and during that same period of time certain

17 functional checks are accomplished, i.e., run the engine so if

18 there are oil leaks they will be detected during that period of

19 time and a test of some of the systems because once the

20 airplane is inside the dock or inside the hangar, those

21 functions are no longer available to you and they are done in

22 advance.

23 Q. The portion of that test where you run the engines, is that

24 conducted outside the hangar?

25 A. It is.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

100

2 A. I did.

3 Q. You saw him do it on 720, the second plane?

4 A. On 705.

5 Q. And the work card that you described, 45904, the one you

6 talked about; is it still before you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That is done as part of the induction process normally?

9 A. It can be done at any time but we like it to be done early

10 because if there is a valve to be removed that failed the test,

11 it gives us the time to send it out and get it back so we don't

12 have to buy another whole valve, we can get the one repaired.

13 Q. Do you recall it was done during the run up on 705?

14 A. That would not be done on a run up.

15 Q. At the time before the plane came in?

16 A. It could be done on a predock or first days of the check.

17 Q. On or about the time you would be doing the run up?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Based on your conversations with Mr. Gonzalez, how would

20 you classify his abilities on a DC-9?

21 A. Very good.

22 Q. Did you see him actually working on the planes? By that I

23 mean during the run up?

24 A. I saw him on the run up. He definitely handled the predock

25 of that airplane.

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1 MR. DUNLAP: One second, Judge.

2 THE COURT: Yes.

3 (Interruption.)

4 MR. DUNLAP: Nothing further.

5 THE COURT: Anything further?

6 CROSS EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Drechsler. I am Norman Moscowitz and I

9 represent SabreTech in this matter.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. You were the technical representative for Aserca Airlines

12 on this project; is that correct?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. Aserca is a Venezuelan airlines?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Before Aserca could have its work done by SabreTech at its

17 facility, it sent representatives up to do an inspection of

18 that facility; is that correct?

19 A. It sends its equivalents to the FAA inspectors to look at

20 the base, yes.

21 Q. Venezuelan inspectors came up to look at the facility?

22 A. They did.

23 Q. And those are Venezuelan FAA inspectors? You said

24 equivalent?

25 A. Equivalents.

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1 Q. And they approved SabreTech as a facility to do that work?

2 A. They did.

3 Q. Did Aserca Airlines itself send its representatives to even

4 expect the facility and approve it to do the work?

5 A. To my knowledge, Jesus Mora, the vice president of

6 maintenance and myself were there during their inspection to

7 answer the questions.

8 Q. During the inspection by the Venezuelan FAA officials?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. SabreTech was approved by the Venezuelan FAA to do this

11 work?

12 A. It was.

13 Q. You live in Minnesota?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. During the period of this work, you were living in

16 Minnesota?

17 A. I was.

18 Q. And your family is there?

19 A. I hope so.

20 Q. Certainly was then?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. You testified that the job of the tech rep is to -- let me

23 see if I can find what you said -- is to approve among other

24 tasks, to approve work on non-routine items at the facility on

25 that aircraft; is that correct?

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1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. To approve a whole variety of things being done at the

3 facility?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. The tech rep's function is to be the eyes and ears of the

6 aircraft owner at that facility; is that correct?

7 A. Well, I don't know -- I wouldn't go ahead and say the eyes

8 and ears of Aserca but they are there to make sure the airplane

9 goes out in an airworthy fashion.

10 Q. You were Aserca's representative?

11 A. I was.

12 Q. It was certainly an inconvenience for you to be coming down

13 from Minnesota to Miami to perform the function?

14 A. Not necessarily. It was a nice time to come to Miami.

15 Q. It did involve being away from home around Christmastime?

16 A. I went home for Christmas.

17 Q. You did go home?

18 A. Yes, three days.

19 Q. Sir, the letter -- Government's Exhibit 2F Mr. Drechsler,

20 the letter you wrote on January 2.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That was sent by you to the vice president of marketing of

23 SabreTech?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. That is Mr. Peyera?

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1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. About a week before -- that letter as you describe has

3 various complaints of yours about the way SabreTech is handling

4 this job; is that correct?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. By the way, these complaints relate to the second aircraft,

7 the 720?

8 A. Well, yes. Both airplanes -- 705 was in the process of

9 delivery and we were finishing up any cost overruns on that

10 particular airplane and 720 was the prime airplane in work.

11 Q. Prior to the date of that letter, January 2, you had

12 already signed the release form on behalf of Aserca with regard

13 to 705; is that correct?

14 A. I believe so.

15 Q. Sir, the release form is a document which you as tech rep

16 signed showing that you are accepting the aircraft back; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Could I see a copy of it?

19 Q. Let me show you and I don't want you to state what is on

20 here, let me show you what we have marked for identification as

21 SabreTech Exhibit Number 5. Look it over by yourself.

22 (Interruption.)

23 BY THE WITNESS:

24 A. Yes.

25 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

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1 Q. When you signed the release form, that is saying to

2 SabreTech that you are taking the aircraft back and prepared to

3 put it back into service at that point; is that correct?

4 A. It is taking the airplane back but it is not putting it

5 into service. I can't put that airplane into service down

6 there because I don't have a Venezuelan license.

7 Q. You did sign the release form on 705, that first aircraft?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. And you signed it on December 21; is that correct?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. And that is about twelve days before this handwritten

12 letter you wrote?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. When you signed that release form, you acknowledged that

15 you on behalf of Aserca were electing to take that aircraft and

16 return it to service?

17 A. Return to service means we were going to ferry the

18 airplane, not in passenger service. We were going to ferry the

19 airplane back, then the Venezuelans inspect the airplane and

20 issue their own license on that airplane.

21 Q. Signing in effect the release you are saying you are taking

22 it back from SabreTech?

23 A. That I can agree to.

24 Q. Back to this letter on January 2, sir.

25 You are aware that several days before you wrote your

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1 letter of complaint, SabreTech wrote a letter to Mr. Mora, to

2 your supervisor at Aserca Airlines; is that correct?

3 A. No, I never got anything. I never got an answer to this

4 letter and I never got the other answer, either.

5 Q. Are you aware that SabreTech, that Mr. Peyera, SabreTech's

6 vice president of marketing about five days before you wrote

7 that letter wrote a letter to Mr. Mora complaining that your

8 absence --

9 MS. MILLER: Object to the content of the letter.

10 THE COURT: He may not even know about it.

11 Are you aware of any letters written to Mr. Mora from

12 SabreTech?

13 THE WITNESS: No, I am not.

14 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

15 Q. Forgetting about the letter, are you aware that SabreTech

16 was complaining that your absence was holding up its work on

17 the job?

18 A. I have not received any letter to that effect.

19 Q. Listen to my question. You have told us you didn't receive

20 a letter. My question is, were you aware that SabreTech

21 complained that the way you were performing your work was

22 holding up its ability to do the job?

23 A. It could have been. There was a terrible fight going on.

24 Q. Are you aware, sir, SabreTech was complaining because you

25 were absent for part of the time and that it was delaying its

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 ability to go ahead and do its work; were you aware of that?

2 A. I am now.

3 Q. Were you aware then?

4 A. No, I was not.

5 Q. Are you aware this handwritten letter you wrote that

6 SabreTech, through Mr. Peyera, did send a letter to Mr. Mora

7 vice president of Aserca?

8 A. I received -- I finally received that response after the

9 airplanes were delivered.

10 Q. And you received that from Mr. Mora?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. So you have seen that letter; correct?

13 A. After the fact.

14 Q. Let me show you what we have marked for identification as

15 SabreTech Exhibit 6. Don't read it to us out loud but tell us

16 if you recognize that?

17 (Interruption.)

18 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

19 Q. Do you recognize that letter?

20 A. Yes, I recognize the letter.

21 Q. Is that the letter which Mr. Peyera sent to Mr. Mora on

22 January 11 in response to your handwritten letter?

23 A. I have to assume that.

24 Q. You can't tell?

25 MS. MILLER: Objection, Your Honor.

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1 BY THE WITNESS:

2 A. I can't, no.

3 THE COURT: When did you first see that letter?

4 THE WITNESS: After the airplanes were delivered back

5 to Venezuela. When we came back down here -- when I came back

6 down here to settle the final billing on the airplanes, then I

7 saw the letter for the first time.

8 THE COURT: Okay.

9 That appears to be the letter you saw for the first

10 time?

11 THE WITNESS: Exactly.

12 MR. MOSCOWITZ: We move into evidence defense

13 exhibit number 6, the letter.

14 MS. MILLER: Objection, hearsay.

15 THE COURT: There is no predicate to show the letter

16 is anything other than that was shown to him at some time after

17 the planes had been delivered. I am sure there is a way to

18 authenticate it.

19 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I will come back to it.

20 THE COURT: It will be left marked for identification

21 as SabreTech Exhibit 5 for identification.

22 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

23 Q. In any event, you do recall this was a response January 11

24 to your letter of January 2; correct?

25 THE COURT: He told us what it was. It was something

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

109

 

1 handed to him when he came down and there is a number so we

2 know what we are talking about. If you can authenticate it, it

3 will be admitted into evidence.

4 Go ahead.

5 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

6 Q. Sir, Ms. Miller was asking you about your handwritten

7 letter; is that correct?

8 THE COURT: She did, we all heard it.

9 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

10 Q. She asked you specifically, if you turn over to the second

11 page, if you look down towards the bottom of the second page,

12 you wrote there, we have Dyn-Air paperwork showing work

13 completed and inspected and not accomplished.

14 Do you recall writing that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sir, that complaint in that letter is not that the work

17 wasn't done --

18 THE COURT: That has already been established by

19 Mr. Dunlap. He said the only thing they had were the two

20 things that went back down to Venezuela and they were minor and

21 he can't remember them now.

22 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

23 Q. This complaint was simply about the timing of filling out

24 the paperwork compared to when the work was being accomplished;

25 correct?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

110

 

1 A. That is correct, and the method of paper tracking.

2 You farmed out 30 percent of that airplane --

3 Q. Excuse me, sir, that is not responsive?

4 THE COURT: Overruled.

5 You may answer the question.

6 Finish your answer if you haven't finished.

7 BY THE WITNESS:

8 A. My problem with the paperwork was trying to keep track of

9 the paperwork in a functional format and with 30 percent of

10 that airplane not being accomplished by Dyn-Air people and j

11 sub'd out to I believe three subcontractors on the field, yet

12 Dyn-Air is signing that work as being accomplished, sometime

13 preceded the work physically being done.

14 Q. It is

15 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

16 Q. It is your recollection the work was done?

17 A. The work eventually got done, yes, I watched it.

18 Q. The 705 and 720 were two aircraft which were done at

19 SabreTech; is that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Even after those two aircraft were done and completed, you

22 in fact on behalf of Aserca made a proposal to SabreTech to do

23 a third aircraft; correct?

24 A. Not to my knowledge because I didn't even want to do a

25 second one.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

111

 

1 THE COURT: I think this is probably a good time to

2 recess for the noon recess; is that right?

3 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Yes.

4 THE COURT: Remember do not discuss the case or permit

5 anyone to talk to you about the case. If there is anything in

6 the newspaper or television or radio, don't watch it.

7 We will take approximately an hour recess and be back

8 here at 1:30.

9 Thank you very much.

10 Marshal, see that they get to the elevator.

11 MS. MILLER: May I bring something up after the jury

12 leaves?

13 THE COURT: Yes.

14 Mr. Drechsler, you may step down. You are in the

15 middle of your testimony so under the rules you will not be

16 able to talk to the lawyers, the agents or people because you

17 are in the middle of your testimony, about your testimony, that

18 is. Of course if you need where to go to lunch or something,

19 that is okay, but not about the facts of your testimony.

20 You may step down. You are excused, sir.

21 (Witness leaves room.)

22 THE COURT: Anybody that wants to leave, now is the

23 time to do it or have a seat.

24 MS. MILLER: I have an earnest request to make which

25 is, unfortunately I forgot an important part of my redirect

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

112

 

1 that was in my notes and in my effort to quicken that redirect

2 of Mr. DiStefano I skipped a vital request and I would request

3 permission to bring him back this afternoon.

4 THE COURT: Motion granted.

5 MR. DUNLAP: I would like to know what it is about;

6 what area she plans to cover with Mr. DiStefano.

7 THE COURT: She can tell you at the recess.

8 Let me say this. With reference to whatever was left

9 off at my office this morning with Ms. Kramerman by the

10 government, as I indicated to you my general practice is to not

11 consider ex-parte submissions unless they involve a subject

12 matter of anticipated danger to a witness or some concern about

13 some party or parties known or unknown, tampering with the

14 witness or something of that sort. If it does not involve

15 that, then the preferable method is to serve whatever it is on

16 counsel and then each side can take their positions whatever

17 they may be and then I rule.

18 This is just a decision that the party that is moving

19 for whatever they are moving for has to make. The Court can't

20 really advise anybody what to do except generally speaking all

21 pleadings must be served on all parties and the opportunity, of

22 course, for a response, may be short or quick; but that is my

23 general practice. That is not to say I may not read what is

24 submitted to me. I think as a matter of prudence or caution I

25 probably have to do that because it may indeed involve some

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

113

 

1 element of danger or harm to some witness or party or lawyer or

2 someone else, but generally speaking, and it may well be --

3 given that framework, does the government wish the Court to go

4 ahead and consider this or simply return it to the government

5 unread?

6 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, I can tell you it has nothing

7 to do with any risk to anybody. It is not an issue like that.

8 Further, as the Court is probably aware, I have served

9 on all counsel the notice that we made this ex-parte

10 submission.

11 THE COURT: Yes, I appreciate that.

12 MS. MILLER: Different Judges do have different

13 practices with regard to their willingness to entertain such

14 material. The government has submitted it. Perhaps what I

15 would request is that the Court read the pleading and not the

16 attachments until it has read the pleading, then if it feels it

17 is inappropriate to go further return it to counsel.

18 THE COURT: Has the pleading been submitted to

19 counsel?

20 MS. MILLER: No, the pleading is also ex-parte.

21 THE COURT: I am generally of the view anything served

22 on the Court should of course be served on all parties. Notice

23 doesn't hurt anybody, then everybody has an opportunity to

24 express maybe agreement or not. The defense has the right to

25 ask for the issuance of subpoenas on an ex-parte basis. I have

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

114

 

1 never really been real comfort with that but I recognize the

2 rule. To me it seems like these things are better off if they

3 are all flushed out in the full light of the day and everybody

4 takes their position and the Court rules on it. I will read

5 the motion and see what it is. I do not wish to leave the

6 impression I will disclose whatever is in the sealed material

7 without giving the government an opportunity to reconsider

8 whether they wish to submit it or not. If it is something I

9 feel falls within the parameters of the general rule that all

10 pleadings must be served on all parties, then I usually will

11 give to whichever party submitted it, either the government or

12 the defense, I will return it to them and say here is what I am

13 going to do. If you want to pursue it, give it to everybody

14 and get their viewpoint, then that person or that lawyer can

15 make a decision what they want to do. That is why they pay the

16 government lawyers so highly and defense lawyers so poorly or

17 is it the other way around.

18 In any event. I know some of my colleagues fall into

19 the perfume trap of giving advice to counsel what they ought to

20 do and that sort of thing. They get the situation, Judge, I

21 don't know what to do with that, what do you think. This Judge

22 doesn't do that. I am precluded from the Code of Conduct of

23 giving advice to counsel. Some of my colleagues are so much

24 nicer than I am, they give all this free advice, gratuitous

25 advice and from time to time you read the opinions where they

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

115

 

1 get themselves reversed. I don't mind about reversals, of

2 course I haven't seen one of those in several years so I don't

3 know what they are any more, and I get about eight a week from

4 the Court of Appeals. Mostly on sentencing matters. I do get

5 reversed. There is a nice 84 year old man the Court of appeals

6 wants me to put in jail I have some reluctance about doing

7 that. So it keeps going up there. It takes two or three

8 years, comes back and we have other hearings. We work with it

9 and we all strive to work out something. It goes back up, gets

10 reversed and comes back. The gentleman comes without a lawyer.

11 He has a lady that lives with him that cares for him a great

12 deal, obviously and she cooks for him and cares for him and she

13 comes every time but he says he doesn't want a lawyer. He says

14 he is just relying on me to do whatever is right and so far he

15 has stayed out of jail about six years. I think he started off

16 when he was 81. Fortunately the prosecutor handling that

17 either got frustrated and tired what was happening and left or

18 the U.S. Attorney got rid of him, but he is up in Georgia

19 somewhere now. Maybe the next prosecutor won't be taking all

20 these appeals.

21 MS. MILLER: It is not Les Courier is it?

22 THE COURT: I don't remember who it was. He was a

23 fine young man but he was determined to put this then 81 or 82

24 year old man in jail for something to do with -- I do remember.

25 Some drug dealers invited him to go on a boat with them to the

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

116

 

1 Yucatan Peninsula over to Mexico where they were going to pick

2 up a load of marijuana and bring it back and they told him he

3 could go along and cook and he thought it was the last time he

4 would ever be on a boat ride. He pled guilty. He knew it was

5 a marijuana boat and shouldn't dot but these young guys he used

6 to cook spaghetti for all these young people and he was their

7 friend and went along and cooked for them on the boat. They

8 weren't going to pay him anything. They all testified for him

9 in his sentencing. He pled guilty and plead guilty being caught

10 with 30,000 pounds of marijuana. It didn't seem right for his

11 last boat ride. They had pictures of him and the younger drug

12 dealers -- the boat broke down. They had to wait for the boat

13 to get fixed and he cooked spaghetti for them every night and

14 the young guys brought in some young ladies of the evening,

15 beautiful young girls -- they took a lot of pictures and here

16 is the old gentleman standing there with a chef's apron on,

17 grinning ear to ear and these young women are all crowded

18 around him scantily attired and hugging him and he is standing

19 there with his thing -- he went along and had a great time.

20 His lady that lives with him, she forgave him for all

21 of this conduct and somehow or the other it didn't seem like he

22 needed to get the ten years the sentencing guidelines said he

23 should.

24 In any event, I keep getting reversed on that one but

25 I will have to live with it.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 I didn't mean to bore you all with that.

2 (Luncheon recess.)

3

4

5 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

6

7 (Open court. Jury not present.)

8 THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.

9 (Jury present.)

10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen we are going to call

11 the last witness for a brief matter that needs to go to be gone

12 into.

13 Thereupon --

14

15 CHRISTOPHER M. DISTEFANO,

16 called as a witness herein, having been previously duly sworn,

17 was examined and testified further as follows:

18 THE COURT: You are reminded you are still under oath.

19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

20 BY MS. MILLER:

21 Q. Do you recall on cross examination being asked about your

22 grand jury testimony?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. At the time of your grand jury testimony, did you have

25 before you any Aserca documents?

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1 A. No.

2 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection. This was gone into on

3 direct, my cross --

4 THE COURT: This is supposed to be redirect of cross

5 examination.

6 What part of his cross examination does this refer to?

7 MS. MILLER: The portion of cross examination when

8 Mr. Moscowitz was seeking to establish --

9 THE COURT: When he asked him what, not what he was

10 trying to do.

11 What did he say?

12 MS. MILLER: He said in the grand jury you did not

13 remember or know which work card had been referred to.

14 THE COURT: Do you recall that question and answer?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 THE COURT: Did you have anything in front of you

17 which would give you those numbers?

18 THE WITNESS: No.

19 BY MS. MILLER:

20 Q. Mr. DiStefano, do you remember testifying in grand jury --

21 MS. MILLER: I am offering something pursuant to

22 801D.(1)(B).

23 BY MS. MILLER:

24 Q. Do you recall being asked approximately how many different

25 items would you say or how many pages of items did he sign off

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

119

 

1 on?

2 "Answer: I mean, you know, I can't give you an exact

3 number but it had to be, you know -- I can't than tell you how

4 many items he took with him, you know, it is just --

5 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I object, Your Honor.

6 THE COURT: Let's ask him a question and see if he can

7 tell the jury in his own words whatever it is you are bringing

8 out on redirect instead of just reading it.

9 BY MS. MILLER:

10 Q. Do you recall in the grand jury being asked how many pages

11 was the document that you saw?

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. How many pages did you tell the grand jury?

14 A. I said about ten pages.

15 Q. Finally, Mr. DiStefano, did there come a time you were able

16 to review documents?

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. When was that?

19 A. It would have been on my first meeting with your office and

20 the FBI.

21 Q. At that time, were you given documents to look through?

22 A. Yes, ma'am.

23 Q. Were you told what documents to identify?

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, leading.

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1 THE COURT: Don't lead your witness. Let's try to

2 focus in on what this point is.

3 BY MS. MILLER:

4 Q. Did you identify any documents at that time?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Did you place anything on the documents to identify them?

7 A. As I recall, I pointed them out and there were some little

8 red flags put on them.

9 MS. MILLER: I am handing the witness what has been

10 marked for identification as Government's Exhibit 2A.

11 BY MS. MILLER:

12 Q. I would ask if you see those little red flags in 2A?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. How many pages do they appear on -- withdrawn.

15 Do those little red flags have any markings on them by

16 you?

17 A. Yes, they have my initials and a date.

18 MS. MILLER: The government offers into evidence the

19 pages of that book that have the red flags on them.

20 THE COURT: I will take this up at the first recess.

21 Anything else of this witness?

22 MS. MILLER: No.

23 THE COURT: You may step down.

24 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Your Honor, may I have very brief

25 cross examination?

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1 THE COURT: Yes, sir. This was redirect of cross but

2 was anything new brought out?

3 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Yes, Your Honor.

4 RECROSS EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

6 Q. Ms. Miller asked you a moment ago when you gave that answer

7 in the grand jury whether you had any documents in front of you

8 and you said no?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. Let me read you the questions and answers at that time and

11 tell me if it is correct: Page 31.

12 "Question: I am referring to grand jury exhibit

13 number 4. I believe this is a routine work card.

14 "Answer: Right.

15 "Question: Was it something like this that he had

16 signed off on?

17 "Answer: Right."

18 Do you recall those questions and answers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So you were shown the document at that time; do you recall

21 that now?

22 A. It wasn't --

23 MS. MILLER: Objection.

24 THE COURT: Pardon me counsel.

25 Finish your answer. So you were shown the work card

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1 and had it in front of you and you started to say something.

2 BY THE WITNESS:

3 A. It it was not an Aserca work item.

4 THE COURT: What was it?

5 THE WITNESS: I believe it was a ValuJet work item.

6 THE COURT: What you had in front of you was a ValuJet

7 work card as best you can recall?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

9 MR. MOSCOWITZ: No further questions.

10 THE COURT: Thank you, you may step down.

11 (Witness excused.)

12 THE COURT: Let's bring on the other gentleman,

13 Mr. Drechsler.

14 MS. MILLER: I will remove the book, Your Honor, if I

15 might.

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 You remain under oath, sir.

18 Thereupon --

19

20 WILLIAM DRECHSLER,

21 called as a witness herein, having been previously duly sworn,

22 was examined and testified further as follows:

23 CROSS EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ: (Continuing. )

25 Q. Mr. Drechsler, before the break I was asking you of course

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1 about the aircraft that you were doing work with for Aserca and

2 you testified two aircraft were completed, the two we have been

3 talking about?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And you testified about certain complaints you had about

6 that?

7 A. I am sorry?

8 Q. You testified about certain complaints you had about that

9 work; correct?

10 A. I had complaints, yes.

11 Q. Isn't it correct that in April of 1996, a couple of months

12 later, you made a request to SabreTech to see if they were

13 interested in doing a third aircraft for Aserca; do you recall

14 that, yes or no?

15 THE COURT: And then you may explain your answer.

16 BY THE WITNESS:

17 A. We were facing --

18 Q. Could you answer my question, sir?

19 THE COURT: Answer his question first then you may

20 explain the answer if you have anything you wish to add.

21 BY THE WITNESS:

22 A. I am aware of a third airplane, yes.

23 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

24 Q. That request to work on a third aircraft came from you;

25 correct?

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1 A. It came from Jesus Mora.

2 Q. Sir, do you recall writing the letter to SabreTech asking

3 them to consider doing a third aircraft?

4 A. If I did, I don't remember it.

5 Q. Let me show you what we have marked as SabreTech 7 and ask

6 you if you recognize this document?

7 A. Yes, it is my letter.

8 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I move in SabreTech Exhibit 7.

9 MS. MILLER: No objection.

10 THE COURT: SabreTech Exhibit 7 for identification is

11 admitted into evidence as Exhibit Number 7.

12 (A document was received in

13 evidence as SabreTech Exhibit 7.)

14 BY MR. MOSCOWITZ:

15 Q. Sir, this is a letter you wrote on April 3, 1996?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. That is signed by you; correct?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. And that is written to SabreTech?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In that letter you are asking SabreTech to consider working

22 on a third aircraft?

23 A. I was told to do that, sir.

24 Q. The answer is, yes?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. That is the Aserca aircraft?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Drechsler, Ms. Miller was asking you about your work

4 history before you formed your own company; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You testified that for a while you were at Midway Airlines

7 as a vice president in charge of maintenance; correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Before that you were the COO of a company called Standard

10 Aero?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Standard Aero was a repair facility in Phoenix, Arizona?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. Standard Aero was sold to Dyn-Air?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. That is the same company we are talking about here which

17 was renamed SabreTech?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Standard Aero was sold to Dyn-Air at a time you were COO of

20 Standard Aero?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. When that sale took place, you left; is that correct?

23 A. After probably four months or something like that; yes,

24 sir.

25 Q. Were you asked to leave?

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1 A. No, I was not. I was supposed to stay a year.

2 Q. After four months you left and Dyn-Air brought in new

3 management?

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 MR. MOSCOWITZ: No further questions -- one more

6 thing.

7 I move the admission of Exhibit Number 5, the release

8 form dated December 21, 1995 which Mr. Drechsler signed.

9 MS. MILLER: No objection, Your Honor.

10 THE COURT: That is nice. I appreciate all of that.

11 The difficulty is that, that document was admitted into

12 evidence, I believe on your motion and statement there was no

13 objection.

14 In any event, it is admitted into evidence as

15 SabreTech Exhibit number 5.

16 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Thank you.

17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

18 BY MS. MILLER:

19 Q. With regard to defense Exhibit 7, the letter written

20 concerning the third airplane.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who told you to write that letter?

23 A. Jesus Mora.

24 Q. What was your role with regard to the third aircraft?

25 A. We were looking for a facility to place that airplane as it

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1 was running close to its maximum hourly tort for the next C

2 check inspection.

3 Q. Did you stay on t work on that third aircraft?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Whose decision was that?

6 A. It was mine.

7 Q. The Dyn-Air tech that bought Standard Aero, do you know if

8 that is the same company Dyn-Air Tech -- withdrawn.

9 The Dyn-Air Tech that bought Standard Aero, do you

10 know if that Dyn-Air Tech had the same ownership as Dyn-Air

11 Tech of Florida when you were there in 1995?

12 A. It was my understanding, yes. They reported to the same

13 corporate headquarters. They had three facilities.

14 MS. MILLER: No further questions.

15 THE COURT: Thank you, you may step down.

16 (Witness excused.)

17 THE COURT: Your next witness.

18 MR. BRIGHAM: The United States calls Ms. Amy Huszai.

19 Thereupon - -

20

21 AMY HUSZAI,

22 called as a witness by the Government, having been first duly

23 sworn, testified as follows:

24 DIRECT EXAMINATION

25 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

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1 Q. Ms. Huszai, feel free to bring the microphone close to you

2 if you feel you are not projecting enough.

3 Where do you presently work?

4 A. Air Tran Airways.

5 Q. Is there a predecessor company to Air Tran Airways?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is the name of that company?

8 A. ValuJet Airlines.

9 Q. Where was ValuJet Airlines headquartered?

10 A. In Atlanta, Georgia.

11 Q. Is that where you are presently working also?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. I would like to direct your attention to the time period

14 shortly after the crash in this case, after May 11, 1996. What

15 position did you hold if any in ValuJet Airlines at that time?

16 A. I was in a position called reliability specialist.

17 However, after the crash I was asked to become a manager of

18 aircraft records.

19 Q. As manager of aircraft records, what were your

20 responsibilities?

21 A. The responsibilities were to receive audits and maintain

22 records for the aircraft as required by our maintenance program

23 and by FAA regulations.

24 Q. As part of your responsibilities, were you required to be

25 familiar also with non-aviation record keeping systems at

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 ValuJet?

2 A. Yes, I was. I assisted if we received a subpoena for any

3 type of records, I was responsible for obtaining the records

4 and insuring they got out.

5 Q. I would like to show you a group of exhibits which are

6 presently labeled the following: Exhibit 18F-2, 25, 25A, 26,

7 26A and 35A and I will show them to counsel first.

8 THE COURT: You are handing it to her and asking her

9 if she can identify them?

10 MR. BRIGHAM: Yes.

11 THE COURT: After you lay the predicate you can show

12 them to counsel and see if they have any objection.

13 You can remove all of the rest of that and put it on

14 the table in front of the court reporter.

15 Take a look at them and see if they are records you

16 maintained or had some contact with.

17 (Interruption.)

18 THE COURT: Have you had a chance to go through them?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 THE COURT: Do they appear to be what they purport to

21 be?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes.

23 THE COURT: Did you maintain them or were they under

24 your supervision?

25 THE WITNESS: I maintained the aircraft records and

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 when we had a document production I was responsible for

2 gathering them and making sure they were distributed.

3 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

4 Q. And you had that responsibility also with respect to the

5 non-aviation records that are before you?

6 A. That is true.

7 Q. It would be the routine practice of ValuJet to maintain

8 those records?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I would like you to look at the first exhibit which I

11 believe is 18F-1. Do you recognize that exhibit?

12 A. I have 18F-2.

13 Q. 18F-2, excuse me.

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. BRIGHAM: I will move to admit.

16 MR. RASKIN: No objection.

17 THE COURT: This then is Government's Exhibit 18F-2

18 admitted into evidence.

19 (A document was received in

20 evidence as Government's Exhibit 18F-2.)

21 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

22 Q. What is F-2?

23 A. Bottom copy of a SabreTech shipping ticket.

24 Q. I would like to refer you now to the next exhibit,

25 Government's Exhibit 25. Do you recognize that?

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1 A. Yes, I do.

2 MR. BRIGHAM: Move to admit.

3 MR. RASKIN: No objection.

4 THE COURT: Were all these documents maintained in the

5 way in which you described?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

7 THE COURT: Produced at the appropriate time to

8 whoever was appropriate to look at them?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10 THE COURT: Does that include all the documents he

11 handed to you?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 THE COURT: Did counsel have an opportunity to review

14 these and is there any objection?

15 MR. RASKIN: Yes, Your Honor. There is no objection.

16 THE COURT: If you would, Mr. Brigham, recite those

17 numbers please slowly for the record. There is 18F-2, which is

18 admitted into evidence. 25A is admitted into evidence.

19 MR. BRIGHAM: 25A.

20 THE COURT: That is admitted.

21 MR. BRIGHAM: 26.

22 THE COURT: That is admitted. 26A, 35A and I believe

23 I said 25A, Your Honor.

24 THE COURT: You did say that.

25 They are all admitted.

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1 (A document was received in

2 evidence as Government's Exhibits 25A, 26A, 35A.)

3 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

4 Q. I would like to show you another group of exhibits,

5 Exhibits 3, 4, 5, 6, 24, 27, 33 and 34 and ask you if you have

6 had an opportunity to examine those documents?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. What are those?

9 A. These are some originals and some copies of documents for

10 aircraft 802 and 803.

11 Q. If you can examine them more closely, are they not copies

12 of selected documents from the exhibits that have just been

13 admitted?

14 A. Yes, they are.

15 MR. BRIGHAM: Move to admit, Your Honor.

16 THE COURT: We are admitting copies into evidence?

17 MR. BRIGHAM: Some documents are multi-page documents

18 and for the convenience of the Court we are selecting certain

19 pages and we want to establish for the Court they are accurate

20 copies.

21 MS. RASKIN: Your Honor, we object to the extent the

22 photocopies don't accurately reflect what appears on the

23 originals, particularly in terms of color. We don't think they

24 are --

25 THE COURT: There is no need to load this record up

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 with another 20 pages of the same thing. You have the

2 originals in evidence. If at the time you argue this matter to

3 the jury you wish to bring to their attention certain of these

4 matters, you can use copies and mark them up; but I think the

5 originals -- at least at this point -- let me leave those

6 marked for identification the numbers you just read out and we

7 will take it up at the end of the day whether they are needed

8 for some other purpose. I will reserve ruling at this time but

9 I am inclined not to admit just copies.

10 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

11 Q. I would like to show you what has been marked as

12 Government's Exhibit 42 and 43.

13 Please examine those documents. Do you recognize

14 them?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. What are those?

17 A. These are portions of maintenance manuals for MD 80

18 aircraft which were copied and distributed as part of a

19 document production.

20 Q. Do you recognize those documents as ValuJet documents?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 MR. BRIGHAM: Move to admit.

23 MR. RASKIN: No objection.

24 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 42 and 43 are each

25 admitted into evidence.

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1 (A document was received in

2 evidence as Government's Exhibit 42 and 43.)

3 MR. BRIGHAM: With the Court's permission I would

4 like to place Government's Exhibits 18F-1 on the Elmo

5 projection system.

6 THE COURT: 18F-1 has not been admitted into evidence.

7 MR. BRIGHAM: F-2, Your Honor.

8 THE COURT: You may.

9 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

10 Q. Do you recognize that document, Ms. Huszai?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is that document?

13 A. That is the pink copy of the SabreTech shipping ticket.

14 Q. You say it is the pink copy. Why do you distinguish it by

15 color?

16 A. From the bottom of the form it was a multipart form.

17 Q. According to the routine practice of ValuJet, who would

18 receive that pink copy?

19 MS. RASKIN: Objection, foundation. We are talking

20 about a SabreTech document.

21 MR. BRIGHAM: May I follow-up, Your Honor?

22 THE COURT: As I understand, Ms. Huszai accumulated

23 these records and maintained them in an orderly fashion and

24 produced them.

25 Did you have anything to do with the receipt of these

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1 documents originally, that is, were you the person that this

2 document would have been mailed to or sent to or delivered to

3 at ValuJet?

4 THE WITNESS: No, I was not.

5 THE COURT: All you know is, this document was one of

6 a number of documents that you had in your care, custody and

7 control and you can testify they weren't changed or modified or

8 added to by you while you had possession of them?

9 THE WITNESS: That is correct.

10 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

11 Q. With respect to the aviation maintenance records, was it

12 your responsibility, though, to maintain those records?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. How did ValuJet come into contact with those records and I

15 am specifically referring to Government's Exhibits 25, 25A, 26

16 and 26A?

17 Would you like to see those documents?

18 A. Yes, please.

19 A. These were received as work packages for work performed by

20 SabreTech on ValuJet.

21 Q. Which ValuJet aircraft?

22 A. 802 and 803.

23 Q. Why did ValuJet receive aviation records for work performed

24 at SabreTech?

25 A. These aircraft were going to be used by ValuJet. They were

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

136

 

1 being placed on ValuJet specifications which allowed us to

2 operate them and as an FAA requirement, we are required to keep

3 all records pertaining to maintenance on those aircraft.

4 Q. How are these records stored?

5 A. Depending on the type of records, these particular

6 aircraft, those records are part of a check package and the

7 entire package is maintained in the records department or in a

8 file cabinet.

9 Q. Why specifically do you have to maintain these records?

10 A. It is an FAA requirement to show that this particular check

11 was done on the aircraft.

12 Q. What contact does FAA have with these type of records

13 maintained by ValuJet?

14 A. At any time the FAA is allowed to come in and review any

15 type of aircraft records for aircraft flying on the aircraft

16 specifications.

17 Q. I would like to show you what has been admitted as

18 Government's Exhibit 43 and direct your attention to the lower

19 part of the front page of that exhibit. What do you see there

20 other than the Bates number?

21 A. There is an identification of February 16, 1996.

22 Q. Do you recognize that?

23 A. I don't understand the question.

24 Q. Do you recognize what that is?

25 A. I recognize it as being part of the cover sheet. I do not

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

137

 

1 understand what its significance is.

2 Q. The cover sheet is from where?

3 A. It is a ValuJet cover sheet.

4 MR. BRIGHAM: Your Honor, we had originally intended

5 to introduce two other documents but I understand we may have a

6 stipulation from counsel that would make that a needless effort

7 and assuming we do have that stipulation at this time I would

8 have no further questions.

9 CROSS EXAMINATION

10 BY MS. RASKIN:

11 Q. Good afternoon. If I could direct your attention to

12 Exhibit 18F-2. Is that still before you?

13 That is not an aviation maintenance record; is it,

14 ma'am?

15 A. No, it is not.

16 Q. Directing your attention to Exhibit 25, 25A, 26, 26A and

17 35A, those are the documents that you have identified as

18 aviation maintenance records relating to aircraft 802 and 803;

19 is that correct?

20 A. I am sorry, could you repeat the exhibits again?

21 Q. 25 and 25A, 26 and 26A and 35A?

22 A. I don't have 35A.

23 Q. Forget about 35A. Those are the records you identified as

24 being aircraft maintenance records relating to aircraft 802 and

25 803?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Those apartments the entirety of the aircraft maintenance

3 records relating to those planes, are they?

4 A. No.

5 Q. They are just excerpts?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know how voluminous the entirety of the paperwork

8 relating to the maintenance that was performed on those planes

9 by SabreTech is?

10 A. If my recollection serves me, the packages are usually in

11 bankers boxes about this long and this wide. You usually

12 receive two or three per aircraft.

13 MS. RASKIN: Thank you very much.

14 THE COURT: Any other questions?

15 MR. BRIGHAM: No questions.

16 THE COURT: You may step down.

17 (Witness excused. )

18 MR. BRIGHAM: Your Honor, I am sorry to ask this at

19 this time if we could establish a stipulation from defense

20 counsel --

21 THE COURT: Dictate the stipulation to the jury if you

22 have a stipulation.

23 MR. BRIGHAM: This is to avoid the calling of a

24 witness.

25 THE COURT: Ms. Huszai, if you would wait just one

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 minute, ma'am.

2 MS. MILLER: We can do it later, Your Honor.

3 THE COURT: May Ms. Huszai be excused?

4 MR. BRIGHAM: Yes.

5 THE COURT: You are excused.

6 (Witnesses excused.)

7 THE COURT: Call your next witness.

8 MS. MILLER: The government calls Robert Rodriguez.

9 Thereupon - -

10

11 ROBERT RODRIGUEZ,

12 called as a witness by the Government, having been first duly

13 sworn, testified as follows:

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MS. MILLER:

16 Q. What is your name and can you spell your last name?

17 A. Robert Rodriguez, R O D R I G U E Z.

18 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, what is your profession?

19 A. I am an aircraft mechanic, an A&P mechanic.

20 Q. How long have you been a licensed A&P mechanic?

21 A. Since 1978.

22 Q. In the time frame of 1995, where were you working?

23 A. I was working full-time at Amerijet International in Fort

24 Lauderdale.

25 Q. Did there come you took on additional work?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

140

1 A. Yes. I worked part-time.

2 Q. What arrangements did you make regard to working part-time

3 beginning in the period of approximately 1995?

4 A. I worked with PDS Aircraft Mechanic Contractors.

5 Q. What is PDS?

6 A. They contract aircraft mechanics for various companies.

7 Q. Do you know what PDS stands for?

8 A. Piping and design.

9 Q. When did you sign on with PDS?

10 A. About June of 1995.

11 Q. Did PDS place you in a position?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. Where did PDS place you?

14 A. It was Dyn-Air Tech at the time.

15 Q. Where was that located?

16 A. 36th Street, Miami, Florida.

17 Q. When did you first go to work at Dyn-Air Tech?

18 A. About June, 1995.

19 Q. Having begun work at Dyn-Air Tech in June, how long did you

20 keep working there?

21 A. I was there about a month, then I returned in October of

22 1995.

23 Q. During the time you were working at Dyn-Air Tech, did you

24 continue to work full-time at Amerijet?

25 A. Yes, I did.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

141

 

1 Q. Following your first stint working at Dyn-Air Tech in the

2 summer of 1995, what was your second stint working at that

3 company?

4 A. It was about -- it was March of 1996.

5 Q. How long did you keep working at that company following

6 March of 1996?

7 A. Until June of 1996.

8 Q. During your second stint from March through June of 1996,

9 did the company have another name?

10 A. Yes. It became SabreTech.

11 Q. During the time that you worked at either Dyn-Air Tech or

12 SabreTech, with regard to jobs you did for Dyn-Air Tech or

13 SabreTech, to whom did you report?

14 A. I reported to the lead mechanic, Lou Casimir.

15 Q. Who was Lou Casimir?

16 A. A crew chief in charge of the crew.

17 Q. Whom did he work for, what company?

18 A. SabreTech.

19 Q. During the period of June and July of 1995, who did he

20 worked for?

21 A. Repeat the question?

22 Q. During the period June and July of 1995, what was the name

23 of the company that he worked for?

24 A. It was Dyn-Air Tech.

25 Q. Who was your supervisor during the time you worked at

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1 Dyn-Air Tech and SabreTech?

2 A. The first part of 1995, the supervisor was --

3 Q. Do you remember?

4 A. The first name was Manny. I can't remember the last name.

5 Q. What about the second stint you worked there from March of

6 1996 through June of 1996, who was your supervisor?

7 A. Dave Wiles.

8 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, what is the difference between reporting to

9 a lead mechanic and reporting to a supervisor?

10 A. Reporting to the lead mechanic, the lead mechanic issues

11 the work to the crews, the individual crews and the

12 supervisor -- and the lead mechanic reports to the supervisor.

13 Q. With regard to the two supervisors that you mentioned,

14 Manny and Dave Wiles, what companies did they work for?

15 A. SabreTech.

16 Q. What company supervised you during the time you worked at

17 Dyn-Air Tech?

18 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, foundation. It calls for

19 conclusion.

20 THE COURT: The question is who he reported to?

21 MS. MILLER: What company supervised him.

22 THE COURT: He can tell us the name of the individual

23 and we could figure it out from there.

24 Who supervised you?

25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dave Wiles.

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1 THE COURT: Do you know what company he worked for?

2 THE WITNESS: He worked for SabreTech.

3 THE COURT: Next question.

4 BY MS. MILLER:

5 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, were there other contract employees of PDS

6 who worked with you at Dyn-Air Tech and SabreTech?

7 A. Yes, there were.

8 Q. Who were they?

9 A. Mr. John Taber, Mr. Eugene Florence, Mr. Juan Mendez, a

10 Mr. Sanchez.

11 Q. You mentioned Eugene Florence. Do you see that person in

12 the courtroom?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Could you point him out to us, please?

15 A. Here.

16 MS. MILLER: May the record reflect identification of

17 the defendant?

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 BY MS. MILLER:

20 Q. Were you able to observe where it was -- withdrawn.

21 Were you able to observe in what crew Mr. Taber,

22 Mr. Florence or Mr. Mendez worked at SabreTech?

23 A. Yes. I observed the crew.

24 Q. What crew did Mr. Taber work for at SabreTech?

25 A. With Mr. Lou Casimir.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 Q. What crew did Mr. Florence work with at SabreTech?

2 A. Mr. Lou Casimir.

3 Q. What crew did Juan Mendez work with at SabreTech?

4 A. Mr. Lou Casimir.

5 Q. What if any supervision did you receive with regard to your

6 work from anybody at PDS?

7 A. None.

8 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, with regard to your second stint at the

9 company in March, what was your initial assignment?

10 A. At first I was working as a mechanic on a ValuJet aircraft,

11 DC-9 aircraft.

12 Q. Were there any other aircraft you were assigned to work on?

13 A. Yes, MD 80 aircraft.

14 Q. What company's aircraft were those?

15 A. ValuJet.

16 Q. What shifts did you work during the stint at SabreTech that

17 began in March of 1996?

18 A. Day shift.

19 Q. Of the people that you mentioned, Mr. Taber, Mr. Florence

20 and Mr. Mendez, what shifts were they on, if you know?

21 A. The day shift.

22 Q. When you arrived, what if any task were you assigned to do

23 with regard to any MD 80 aircraft of ValuJet?

24 A. I was to install new oxygen generators on aircraft 802, the

25 MD 80 aircraft.

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145

 

1 Q. Was anybody working on that task with you?

2 A. Yes, Mr. Billy Moss, Mr. Taber and Mr. Florence.

3 Q. Who assigned you to do that task?

4 A. Mr. Lou Casimir.

5 Q. Can you explain to us, please, the process of installing

6 new oxygen generators?

7 A. The new oxygen generators when I arrived at that job scene,

8 they were built up in their inserts and ready to be installed

9 on the aircraft.

10 Q. Where on an aircraft were the new oxygen generators

11 installed?

12 A. On the overhead panel, PSU panel.

13 Q. You mentioned something called the PSU panel. What are you

14 referring to?

15 A. It is a passenger service unit. It contains your lights,

16 air.

17 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I am placing before you what has been marked

18 as Government's Exhibit 29. I would ask if you recognize that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. What do you recognize it as?

21 A. A PSU panel.

22 Q. Is it a PSU panel for a particular type of aircraft?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. What type of aircraft?

25 A. MD 80 aircraft.

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1 Q. Have you seen and worked with that type of panel before?

2 A. Yes, I have.

3 Q. Is this similar to the type of panel you worked on in the

4 MD 80 aircraft in March of 1996?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, could you take that unit out of the box,

7 please.

8 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, may I ask the witness to step

9 down so the jury may see the item?

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 BY MS. MILLER:

12 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, can you hold the panel up so the jury can

13 see it from underneath and perhaps if you could tilt it they

14 could see it.

15 Could you explain what you are showing to the jury?

16 A. I am showing them a PSU panel that is installed on every

17 seat, row for your lights and air conditioning.

18 Q. Could you now show the other side of the panel to the jury,

19 the innards of the unit and point out the various portions of

20 it?

21 THE COURT: Could you use a microphone please as you

22 do that:

23 MS. MILLER: May I ask Mr. Brigham to hold the unit so

24 Mr. Rodriguez can point out parts of it?

25 THE COURT: Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 BY MS. MILLER:

2 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, could you show us the parts of the PSU unit

3 and explain to us what you are showing?

4 A. This is the reading lamps up here. This is your air

5 outlets for passenger comfort. This is your oxygen generator

6 with the mask attached to it in case of emergency the oxygen

7 from the PSU panel has an outlet door on the bottom and the

8 oxygen mask will drop and as the person requires the oxygen, he

9 will pull on the oxygen mask discharging the firing pin on the

10 oxygen generator producing oxygen for the passenger.

11 Q. Is there an oxygen generator in place in that PSU?

12 A. No, there isn't.

13 Q. What is that big curved object you were pointing to?

14 A. This is the insert, insert assembly that houses the oxygen

15 generator.

16 Q. Is there something inside that insert that is not perhaps

17 visible to the jury?

18 A. Inside?

19 THE COURT: Is there anything inside the generator?

20 MS. MILLER: Inside the insert.

21 BY THE WITNESS:

22 A. No, there isn't.

23 BY MS. MILLER:

24 Q. What holds the oxygen generator in place inside the unit,

25 the insert unit?

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1 A. You have a clamp system that holds it in place.

2 Q. What are those clamps made of?

3 A. I believe stainless steel.

4 MS. MILLER: If we could return the unit -- if we

5 could put it on the table for now.

6 THE COURT: That is fine.

7 MS. MILLER: Mr. Rodriguez, you could resume your

8 seat:

9 BY MS. MILLER:

10 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I am also handing you what has been received

11 in evidence as Government's Exhibit 30A, 30B, excuse me, and I

12 would ask if you recognize that object?

13 A. Yes. It is an oxygen generator with a hollow shell.

14 Nothing in it.

15 Q. Has something happened to the bottom of it as well?

16 THE COURT: He has described it. It is empty, we can

17 see it.

18 Ask the next question.

19 BY MS. MILLER:

20 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, does this oxygen generator resemble the ones

21 you worked with in installing new oxygen generators on MD 80

22 aircraft in March of 1996?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. That oxygen generator has a yellow warning label on it; do

25 you see that?

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149

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall such a warning label on the oxygen generators

3 which you installed in March of 1996?

4 A. No, I do not recall.

5 Q. Were you able to complete -- withdrawn.

6 What aircraft were you working on in installing new

7 oxygen generators?

8 A. Aircraft 802.

9 Q. Why were you working on 802 and not 803?

10 A. Because Lou Casimir's crew was assigned to 802.

11 THE COURT: You went out there and worked where they

12 told you to work? If they said 802, 803, you did what you were

13 told to do?

14 THE WITNESS: Right.

15 THE COURT: Let's move on.

16 BY MS. MILLER:

17 Q. What was the condition of the lanyards on the oxygen

18 generators, the new oxygen generators which you installed into

19 802?

20 A. The condition of the lanyards?

21 Q. Were they wrapped or unwrapped?

22 A. Before they were installed on the inserts?

23 Q. As they were installed into the aircraft?

24 A. They were tied to the mats.

25 Q. Which was the first job you did, Mr. Rodriguez, was it

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

150

 

1 installing generators into the aircraft or placing generators

2 into inserts?

3 A. It was installing the generators into the aircraft.

4 Q. I am handing you back Exhibit 30B for a moment, Mr.

5 Rodriguez. What yellow item appears on the top of it?

6 A. A cap.

7 Q. Is there a name for that cap?

8 A. Shipping cap or safety cap.

9 Q. Was such a cap present on the new oxygen generators which

10 you installed onto aircraft 802?

11 A. Yes, there was.

12 Q. Did you discuss with anybody the shipping cap on the new

13 oxygen generators that were installed into 802?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. With whom?

16 A. Mr. John Taber.

17 Q. Did you have any discussions of the shipping caps that were

18 on the new generators which you installed onto 802 with anyone

19 in addition to John Taber?

20 A. No, just with Mr. John Taber, with Mr. Lou Casimir present

21 in the area.

22 Q. Did there come a time when you stopped installing new

23 generators into 802?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What caused you to stop installing new generators into 802?

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1 A. We were completed on the left side of the aircraft and

2 there were a few generators to be completed, assembled on the

3 table.

4 Q. At that point did you receive a new assignment with regard

5 to the oxygen generators?

6 A. Yes, to tie the masks to the new generators that were being

7 assembled.

8 Q. You spoke of generators being assembled. Did this take

9 place in the airplane?

10 A. No. It took place outside the aircraft.

11 Q. Where outside the aircraft?

12 A. I would say about 40, 50 feet away from the aircraft.

13 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, could you step down for a moment with the

14 Court's permission?

15 THE COURT: Go ahead. Take the microphone so he could

16 speak into it.

17 BY MS. MILLER:

18 Q. If you could look, please, at Government's Exhibit 71.

19 Can you show us where on this diagram of the SabreTech

20 floor this assembly task that you told us about took place?

21 A. About this area right here.

22 Q. Where was the actual aircraft 802?

23 A. 802 was in this area right here.

24 Q. Thank you, you can resume your seats.

25 Where physically and what furnishing arrangements did

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

152

 

1 you work on the assembly task?

2 A. The work table.

3 Q. How big was the work table?

4 A. It was about six feet, four to six feet.

5 Q. On how many days did you perform this task?

6 A. One day.

7 Q. Approximately when was the day you performed this task at

8 the work table?

9 A. About March, 1996.

10 Q. Was there anyone else present at the work table with you?

11 A. Yes. Mr. Taber, Mr. Florence.

12 Q. In addition to the persons -- withdrawn.

13 Were they sitting at the table with you?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. In addition to persons sitting at the table with you, were

16 there other people in the vicinity of the work table?

17 A. Yes, Mr. Wiles and Mr. Casimir.

18 Q. How long were you working at the work table?

19 A. Three hours.

20 Q. What tasks were involved in putting new oxygen generators

21 into the inserts from the PSU units that you showed us?

22 A. It involved taking the old generator out of the insert and

23 installing the new ones in the insert.

24 Q. Once the old generators were taken out of the insert, where

25 did you put them?

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1 A. They were already in a box right by the table.

2 Q. Did you see this box?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Can you describe the box?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Will you describe it for us, please?

7 A. It was like -- it was like a towel box where paper towels

8 go in.

9 Q. And you say the size -- was it a towel box?

10 A. Yes, it is appeared as a towel box.

11 Q. When you joined the work at the table, were there already

12 generators in that box as far as you could observe?

13 A. Yes, there were.

14 Q. As you worked at the table, what happened to additional old

15 generators that were being worked with at the table?

16 A. Additional generators were wrapped, the land yards were

17 wrapped and they were tagged -- the lanyards were taped and

18 they were tagged with a green tag.

19 Q. Where were the old generators put after they were wrapped

20 and tagged?

21 A. In the same box I just described.

22 Q. Did you see what happened -- withdrawn.

23 You told us you were tying something up at this table?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were you tying?

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154

 

1 A. I was tying the mask to the new generators.

2 Q. What part of the new generators was the mask tied to?

3 A. It was tied to like a D ring.

4 Q. Did you have any written instructions that you observed as

5 you were performing this task?

6 A. Yes, I had.

7 THE COURT: Would you recognize the instructions if

8 you saw them again?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would.

10 THE COURT: Show them to him and ask him if those were

11 the instructions he was using at that time.

12 Were these the instructions you were using at the

13 time?

14 BY MS. MILLER:

15 Q. Mr. Rodriguez --

16 THE COURT: Let him answer the question.

17 MS. MILLER: It is a multi-page document.

18 THE COURT: Look at what she showed you. Is that

19 familiar to you as something you were using at the time?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes.

21 MS. MILLER: We offer it in evidence.

22 THE COURT: Any objection to it?

23 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Same objection as before, Your Honor.

24 It is a copy of something that is already in evidence.

25 THE COURT: Let's use the original then and we can

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

155

 

1 refer to it. The originals are all on the desk. It is

2 probably Exhibit 25, 25A or 26A.

3 If defense agrees it is in evidence, we can just go on

4 from there. He was using that exhibit, he said.

5 MS. MILLER: Only one part of the exhibit.

6 THE COURT: Is it important as to which part he was

7 using?

8 MS. MILLER: Yes, it is.

9 THE COURT: Do you have the manuals available to you

10 so you could look at them whenever you wanted to and get

11 information about what you were doing; is that correct? Tell

12 me how it worked?

13 THE WITNESS: I was shown this card right here with

14 respect to the masks. When I was done tying it I was shown the

15 next portion which was installation. That was all.

16 THE COURT: And you looked at those two and you

17 performed those tasks?

18 THE WITNESS: Right.

19 THE COURT: How many of those did you do,

20 approximately?

21 THE WITNESS: About four or five.

22 BY MS. MILLER:

23 Q. This diagram you were shown, Mr. Rodriguez, and I am

24 showing you a portion of Government's Exhibit 25. Was it part

25 of another document?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

156

 

1 THE COURT: Did they give you a whole big wad

2 of stuff or did they give you one page?

3 THE WITNESS: They gave me one page because they made

4 copies.

5 THE COURT: But it was all the same page or two?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

7 THE COURT: That is what they did, that is what he

8 knows.

9 BY MS. MILLER:

10 Q. What is the page number of the diagram that you were shown?

11 A. 5.

12 A. Five of six.

13 MS. MILLER: If I may place it on the magnifier?

14 THE COURT: Yes, indeed.

15 BY MS. MILLER:

16 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, would you explain to us what is depicted in

17 page five of six and what is the drawing?

18 THE COURT: He said he looked at it, he followed the

19 instructions, he wrapped up five or six of these units and that

20 is what he did. The document speaks for itself. It is right

21 there.

22 Did you deviate from what it told you to do about

23 wrapping the lanyards and that sort of thing? You did what it

24 said to do?

25 THE WITNESS: Exactly what is on there.

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157

 

1 THE COURT: Tell the jury what you did, maybe that

2 will help.

3 THE WITNESS: I was told by the lead to help tie these

4 masks to the new generators and he gave me a copy of this form

5 right here how to tie it.

6 THE COURT: Did you do that?

7 THE WITNESS: I did that.

8 THE COURT: Tell the jury what you did. You took the

9 lanyards and what, wrapped them around the new generator or

10 what did you do?

11 THE WITNESS: You take the mask and the new generator

12 and you tie that knot on the new generator. Then it is set in

13 the insert.

14 THE COURT: Then later on you put the insert in the

15 plane?

16 THE WITNESS: In the aircraft.

17 THE COURT: And you followed the instructions all the

18 way?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 BY MS. MILLER:

21 Q. Could you determine what other people were doing at the

22 table?

23 A. Yes. Mr. Taber and Mr. Florence were doing the same thing.

24 Wrapping the old generators and taping them and marking them.

25 Q. What were they wrapping the old generators with?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

158

 

1 A. Tape.

2 Q. Was there anything under the tape?

3 A. The lanyards.

4 Q. Can you describe how the lanyards were wrapped on the old

5 generators?

6 A. They were wrapped how the new ones came in, around the top.

7 Q. Was there any conversation at the table while you were

8 there?

9 A. Yes. I asked Mr. Taber --

10 MR. RASKIN: Objection.

11 THE COURT: On what basis?

12 MR. RASKIN: What Mr. Taber told him.

13 THE COURT: Mr. Taber was working for SabreTech.

14 MR. RASKIN: He was a contract employee, Your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Then he was an agent. Overruled.

16 You may say what he said to you and what you said to

17 him.

18 MR. DUNLAP: It is hearsay as to my client.

19 THE COURT: It will only be considered for the purpose

20 of your client on Count 1, the conspiracy charge. He is

21 charged in the conspiracy, I believe.

22 MR. DUNLAP: Yes, Your Honor, but respectfully I would

23 argue --

24 THE COURT: You may only consider it as to the

25 conspiracy count. Overruled as to the rest.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

159

 

1 What was the conversation? What did you say to Taber,

2 what did he say to you.

3 THE WITNESS: I asked him why are you wrapping the

4 lanyards like that and Mr. Taber replied, we don't have any

5 shipping caps. I asked the supervisor what does he want us to

6 do with these generators, do you want us to discharge them or

7 what he wanted us to do --

8 MR. RASKIN: Objection. We are getting to the second

9 level of hearsay, what the supervisor told Mr. Taber who is

10 telling the witness.

11 THE COURT: All right. I will sustain that objection.

12 You can bring the supervisor in, I presume.

13 Leaving out what the supervisor told Mr. Taber, any

14 other conversation at that time? About the caps or the

15 lanyards?

16 THE WITNESS: He was told to set them to the side and

17 continue working.

18 THE COURT: Did you do that?

19 THE WITNESS: I did three or four, yes.

20 THE COURT: What did you do, you set them to the side

21 on the floor?

22 THE WITNESS: They were on the bench.

23 THE COURT: You just put them to one side of the

24 table?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

160

1 THE COURT: You left them there and worked on the

2 others?

3 THE WITNESS: Right.

4 BY MS. MILLER:

5 Q. Who else was present at the table during this conversation?

6 A. Mr. Florence.

7 Q. Where was Mr. Florence in proximity to yourself and

8 Mr. Taber?

9 A. He was at the end of the table.

10 Q. How far away was that?

11 A. About four feet, five feet.

12 Q. What if any instructions did Mr. Taber give you, verbal

13 instructions?

14 MR. RASKIN: Same objection.

15 THE COURT: If I understand this correctly,

16 Mr. Florence was at the table. If we had that predicate we

17 could have saved a lot of these objections.

18 Mr. Florence was at the table, Mr. Taber, yourself and

19 anyone else?

20 THE WITNESS: The supervisor and the lead were in the

21 same area.

22 THE COURT: What were their names?

23 THE WITNESS: Mr. Wiles and Mr. Casimir.

24 THE COURT: So there were six of you or five of you

25 around the table? It witness right.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

161

 

1 THE COURT: All of you were working on these

2 generators?

3 THE WITNESS: Right.

4 THE COURT:

5 With reference to what was said, what is the

6 objection?

7 MR. DUNLAP: Hearsay.

8 THE COURT: In the presence of the defendant?

9 MR. DUNLAP: My client Mr. Gonzalez was not there.

10 Under 801D.2E I would like a standing objection to this line of

11 testimony.

12 MR. RASKIN: I would like to make the same standing

13 objection. I recognize Your Honor's ruling.

14 THE COURT: The jury is instructed with reference to

15 those counts and there are a whole bunch of counts in this

16 indictment, those counts that pertain individually to

17 Mr. Gonzalez, Danny Gonzalez, things that were said outside his

18 presence when he was not there you should not consider against

19 him or in reference to the case against him. You may consider

20 it with respect to the conspiracy case in Count 1 and perhaps

21 other counts, I am not sure, but in those counts it may be

22 considered. It sounds a little confusing but we will

23 straighten it out at the end of the case.

24 With respect to the defendant SabreTech and

25 Mr. Florence, Mr. Florence was present and representatives of

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

162

 

1 SabreTech were all there and patterned in the conversation, it

2 is not hearsay and you may consider it.

3 Let's elicit the conversation if that was your

4 question.

5 BY MS. MILLER:

6 Q. What if anything did you say about the shipping caps?

7 A. I asked you are wrapping them like that and he said he was

8 told to set them to the side.

9 Q. Wrapping refers to what part of the generator, Mr.

10 Rodriguez?

11 A. The lanyards.

12 Q. Was anything said about the shipping caps in addition?

13 A. In the conversation, yes. He said Mr. Wiles -- he had a

14 conversation with Mr. Wiles.

15 MS. MILLER: I would like to elicit that conversation.

16 THE COURT: Of course you can, Mr. Wiles was sitting

17 right there.

18 Wasn't Mr. Wiles one of the people sitting at the

19 table?

20 THE WITNESS: He was in the vicinity.

21 THE COURT: Tell the jury what the people said to each

22 other. What you said to them and what they said to you.

23 Mr. Taber said to you I talked to Wiles. He was right there.

24 What did he tell you?

25 THE WITNESS: He said set them to the side and

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163

 

1 continue working the generators.

2 THE COURT: Did Mr. Wiles jump up and scream I didn't

3 say that?

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 THE COURT: What else happened? Tell us the rest of

6 the conversation.

7 THE WITNESS: In the conversation he asked Mr. Wiles

8 do you want us to discharge them and what do you want to do

9 about the caps and he said just set them to the side and

10 continue working. That was it.

11 THE COURT: Did you do that?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 BY MS. MILLER:

14 Q. You have told us about some tags. What kind of tags if any

15 were put on the old generators as they were removed?

16 A. They were green unservicible tags.

17 Q. I am handing you what has been marked as an exhibit, as

18 Government's Exhibit 45 and I ask you if you recognize it?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Does that bear some relationship to what you were doing

21 that day?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. MILLER: The government offers 45 in evidence.

24 MR. RASKIN: No objection.

25 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 45 is admitted into

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

164

 

1 evidence.

2 (A document was received in

3 evidence as Government's Exhibit 45.)

4 BY MS. MILLER:

5 Q. What is Exhibit 45, Mr. Rodriguez?

6 A. It is repairable tag --

7 Q. Could you hold it up so the jury can see it.

8 What is a repairable tag used for?

9 A. It is used for any items that need to be repaired.

10 Q. Was there any discussion that day with regard to repairing

11 the items you were working on?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, when did you first note any shipping caps

14 associated with any oxygen generators?

15 A. On the installation.

16 Q. That was with regard to new or old generators?

17 A. To the new generators on 802.

18 Q. With regard to that installation, did you sign any work

19 cards?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I am handing you Government's Exhibit 25 in

22 evidence and I am turning it to a particular page and I would

23 ask you to look at that page. Do you recognize that page?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. What is it you recognize on that page?

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1 A. It is a non-routine card.

2 Q. What is that non-routine card for?

3 A. It is for replacement of oxygen generators.

4 Q. Did you sign that non-routine card?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. What do you mean by non-routine card?

7 A. A non-routine card is a card that is generated from a

8 routine card. For instance, if you are changing an engine,

9 that is a routine card. If you find a broken bracket you could

10 generate a non-routine card to cover that broken bracket and

11 that was a non-routine.

12 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I am pointing to a portion of this card and

13 I am asking you if this is the portion of the work card that

14 you signed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does your signature appear?

17 A. Yes, it does, above the pointer.

18 Q. Is this little squiggle here your signature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is to the left of your signature where the pointer is

21 now?

22 A. It is the contractor's initials that verified I was a

23 contractor, employee number.

24 Q. What is an employee number?

25 A. Employee number was given to each contractor.

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166

 

1 Q. Was that unique for every employee?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. For what reason did you put your number as well as your

4 signature on this card?

5 A. Because I installed the O 2 generators in the following

6 rows 26, 27, 28, 29, 33 and 34 and 35.

7 Q. Why did you put all of those row numbers in there as

8 opposed -- withdrawn.

9 Did you sign the work completed by portion of this

10 work card?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. Did you sign any other work card associated with the work

13 on oxygen generators on 802?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. What was the task that was addressed by this non-routine

16 work card, and if I might I will remove the clip so we could

17 see the top portion of the work card.

18 Can you read what it says under item description?

19 A. All cabin O 2 generators out of date.

20 Q. Can you see what it says under planned action?

21 A. Replace generators. Work with 728HO6W178.

22 Q. Do you recognize the type of number that is reflected, that

23 lengthy number you just ready am circling with the pointer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What type of number is that?

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167

 

1 A. I believe it is a non-routine number.

2 Q. Another work card?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, is the non-routine card I am presently

5 placing on the magnifier in fact the one that says 728HO6W178?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us what this non-routine work card is for

8 based on the item description?

9 A. Removal and replace the following hard time components.

10 All cabin oxygen generators for ValuJet card 69 is attached.

11 Q. Can you see where that work card has been signed under

12 corrective action?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. By whom is it signed?

15 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

16 THE COURT: You are asking him who signed the card.

17 Do you know who signed the card?

18 THE WITNESS: It appears as Florence, from what I

19 could read.

20 Q. In performing the work reflected on the work card we just

21 looked at, Mr. Rodriguez, did you follow any work card?

22 A. Yes, I did, card 69.

23 Q. Did you use all of the pages of 0069 in performing the work

24 that you did?

25 A. No, I did not.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

168

 

1 Q. Within that document I just showed you, I am showing you a

2 portion. Do you recognize that as work card 0069?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. If I may place this on the magnifier.

5 How many pages are there in 0069?

6 A. There are six pages.

7 Q. Did you work with page 1, and let me zoom out a little bit

8 so you could see it more.

9 Let me give you -- let me give you something.

10 Do you recognize this as a copy of anything?

11 A. This is a copy of card 69, page 1 of 6.

12 Q. If you could use that copy.

13 The pages you worked with, Mr. Rodriguez, did you work

14 with page 1?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. Did you work with page 2?

17 A. Would you focus that, please?

18 Q. You could use the copy in front of you. Just pull it out

19 of the plastic.

20 A. Yes, I worked with page 2.

21 Q. Did you work with page 3?

22 A. Yes, I worked with page 3.

23 Q. Did you work with page 4?

24 A. Yes, I worked with page 4.

25 Q. Did you work with page 5?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

169

 

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Did you work with page 6?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All of these oxygen generators involved 802?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did there come a time you had contact with oxygen

7 generators on any other aircraft at SabreTech?

8 A. Yes, there was.

9 Q. What other aircraft?

10 A. Aircraft 830.

11 Q. What role did you have with regard to any oxygen generators

12 on 830?

13 A. The lead mechanic, Lou Casimir, he instructed myself,

14 Mr. Taber and Mr. Moss to get some inserts from aircraft 830

15 for aircraft 802.

16 Q. When you say inserts, are you referring to -- what are you

17 referring to?

18 A. The insert assembly from the PSU panel.

19 Q. What was included in the assembly?

20 A. The O 2 generator.

21 Q. Did something occur as you and Mr. Moss and Mr. Taber were

22 doing this?

23 A. Yes. On the way out of the aircraft, one of the generators

24 accidentally ignited.

25 Q. Do you know which of the three of you was holding that

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1 generator?

2 A. No, I don't recall.

3 Q. What did you observe?

4 A. The generator was placed down on the floor so it could cool

5 off.

6 Q. Did you hear anything when it went off?

7 A. There was a slow hissing sound.

8 Q. Did you feel anything when it went off?

9 A. As you got closer to it, you could feel some heat.

10 Q. Did you smell anything as it went off?

11 A. You could smell like chemical.

12 Q. Approximately how long did you observe this oxygen

13 generator as it was going off?

14 A. Probably two minutes, three minutes.

15 Q. What did you do?

16 A. We notified the lead mechanic of what happened.

17 Q. Where did you go to do that?

18 A. Outside the aircraft. We brought him inside the aircraft

19 to look at it.

20 Q. Whom did you bring inside the aircraft to look at it?

21 A. Mr. Casimir.

22 Q. What happened when he looked at it?

23 A. He said let it cool off, leave it alone and be careful with

24 the rest of them taking them over to 802 and he walked off.

25 Q. After the new generators were installed in 802, did your

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171

 

1 crew and you specifically receive any other instructions with

2 regard to additional work to be done on the oxygen generators

3 in 802?

4 A. Yes. They had produced an engineering order to switch from

5 the three mask configuration to the four mask configuration.

6 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, in the PSU that we have been referring to

7 Government's Exhibit 29, what mask configuration is this?

8 A. Four mask.

9 Q. Are there other options, other types of configurations that

10 can exist on a PSU?

11 A. Yes. You could have a two mask, three mask configuration.

12 Q. You have referred to an engineering order and I am showing

13 you Government's Exhibit 25 and I am referring you to a

14 document in Government's Exhibit 25. Do you recognize that

15 document?

16 A. Yes, it is an engineering order.

17 Q. That is the engineering order you were referring to?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. MILLER: If I may place it on the magnifier?

20 THE COURT: Yes, you can do that at any time you wish

21 if it is in evidence.

22 BY MS. MILLER:

23 Q. Are there steps to this engineering order?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you sign any portion of the engineering order, Mr.

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1 Rodriguez?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. The events you have been telling us about Mr. Rodriguez

4 with regard to the oxygen generators occurred approximately

5 when?

6 A. March of 1996.

7 Q. Do you recall the date that you signed the non-routine work

8 order, and I am showing it to you again from Government's

9 Exhibit 25.

10 A. Yes, about March, 1996.

11 Q. Do you see a date on there by your signature?

12 A. By my signature, there is no date.

13 Q. Did there come a time later in 1996 when you again had some

14 contact with oxygen generators?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Approximately when was that?

17 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, I was about to launch into a

18 new area. I don't know if you wanted to time that with any

19 break.

20 THE COURT: If this is a convenient time we will take

21 a short recess.

22 Ladies and gentlemen, we will recess.

23 (Jury leaves room.)

24 THE COURT: You will not be able to talk to anyone

25 about your testimony during this brief recess. You are in the

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1 middle of your testimony but you can step down and go out if

2 you would like.

3 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, probably before the break we

4 should take up an issue with regard to a statement that was

5 made to this witness after the crash as to which I believe the

6 defense has an objection and the matter should not -- I didn't

7 want to bring it out in front of the jury.

8 THE COURT: Thank you.

9 (Recess.)

10 (Open court. Jury not present.)

11 THE COURT: Would somebody in the back ask the

12 remaining defense counsel to come in.

13 Mr. Raskin is here as always.

14 MR. RASKIN: Mr. Dunlap is also here.

15 Everybody is here.

16 With respect to the earlier matter involving the

17 government's ex-parte submission to the Court, I have no

18 difficulty with the fact Ms. Miller submitted it. I know the

19 practice varies from division to division around here and she

20 in abundance of caution submitted it and I have read the memo,

21 not any of the other matters that were attached in sealed form

22 and will at this point in time give them to Ms. Kramerman and

23 ask her to return them to the government. The government will

24 have to do what is appropriate and best. I feel I am in a

25 sense not directly advising, because they are asking for my

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1 thoughts on the matter and I don't do that. It is not

2 criticism. I am sure Ms. Miller will do whatever she has to do

3 and I am sure it will be in good faith.

4 Ms. Miller, I remembered the Assistant U.S. Attorney

5 that kept appealing me on that case and obviously he was

6 correct, he kept getting me reversed on that matter with the

7 ship that started off -- I believe he was 81. Vicky, how old

8 was he?

9 THE CLERK: I believe he was in his 80s.

10 THE COURT: Last I heard he was about 86 and still

11 happy as can be down in Key West, Stock Island, living with

12 this nice lady that looks after him, takes care of him and

13 whenever I need him or has a hearing, he comes up here by

14 himself. He shows up every time.

15 Anyway, the whole thing was on that trip, these young

16 guys that he knew around Key West that he used to be a cook in

17 restaurants and he just new these guys, he knew they were drug

18 dealers, but they were talking in his restaurant or house or

19 someplace and they were talking about making this marijuana run

20 down to the Yucatan. They called him pop or grandpop. He was

21 just like an older guy that was around and one of them turned

22 to him and said a pop, how about going with us. We will be

23 gone for a week and you can cook for us and he said something

24 and they said it won't cost you anything, just come along and

25 he went off. He wanted to go on a boat trip.

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1 They all said the same thing. It wasn't anything

2 anybody cooked up at the last minute. They said poor old pop,

3 we liked him and just wanted him to go along. With that silly

4 grin on his face with those pretty girls, one of them planted a

5 big kiss on his forehead right here and there was nothing

6 inappropriate or sexual about it. It was obviously some women

7 having fun and he was standing there grinning with this ladle

8 will in his hand.

9 I remember the prosecutor, Allen Kaiser tried the case

10 but he didn't take the appeals. Allen tried 36 trials before

11 me in one year in Key West. A lot of trials for a prosecutor.

12 He tried that case and there were four or five

13 defendants.

14 Then he moved on to bigger and better things or bigger

15 things, I don't know if they are any better or not. He was

16 just a rookie starting out. Anyway a fellow named Pearson

17 inherited the case and he had firm convictions about following

18 the rules and he is right, you should. I am not critical of

19 him but Bill Pearson --

20 MS. MILLER: Ray Pearson.

21 THE CLERK: That is right.

22 THE COURT: This was Ray Pearson from Georgia or South

23 Carolina.

24 MS. MILLER: He went to Georgia.

25 THE COURT: Some of you practiced with him.

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1 MR. MOSCOWITZ: He was from Alabama.

2 THE COURT: And he went back to Georgia and he had

3 positive views. If the guidelines said ten years, it ought to

4 be ten years. I don't have any quarrel with the correctness of

5 his legal opinion. It is just a matter what you wanted to do

6 with pop, put him away for ten years. I guess if they let him

7 cook up there he wouldn't have minded it.

8 In any event, enough of that.

9 You suggested that this witness at some point you are

10 going to elicit a statement that someone made. I need to know

11 who, when and where and who was present.

12 MS. MILLER: After the crash, Eugene Florence was

13 fired from SabreTech and he came back to the premises at about

14 that time and I have told Mr. Rodriguez not to mention about

15 his being fired. Mr. Rodriguez had a conversation with Eugene

16 Florence. Eugene Florence was with a friend, Rodriguez was

17 with someone else and Rodriguez said Eugene what happened and

18 Florence said, they set me up. Florence looked kind of angry,

19 he was breathing fast and shaking his head.

20 That is what I intend to bring out, Your Honor.

21 He testified to more than that --

22 THE COURT: When was this and where, after the crash?

23 MS. MILLER: Yes.

24 THE COURT: How long after the crash?

25 MS. MILLER: Lynch probably two weeks.

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177

 

1 THE COURT: Florence is speaking to Rodriguez.

2 Anybody else present?

3 MS. MILLER: Mr. Florence's friend, Mr. Rodriguez

4 didn't know his name and another PDS worker who worked at

5 SabreTech named Juan Mendez.

6 THE COURT: They were talking about the crash or

7 something and Mr. Florence allegedly made this statement.

8 What bearing or materiality does it have to anything?

9 MS. MILLER: On Florence's part, it is an implicit

10 admission he participated in it because he says they set me up.

11 THE COURT: Implicit also is the suggestion he did

12 nothing wrong. I think it balances out. I don't think it is

13 really probative of anything and I think the inherent problems

14 with it in the sense it is an utterance after the event not in

15 furtherance of any conspiracy, the conspiracy if there was one

16 has ended. It is not intended to be a cover up of any

17 conspiracy. Quite the contrary, it is a suggestion that

18 somebody connected with SabreTech or with PDS or whatever this

19 outfit was has conspired against him to hurt him.

20 I think if it were solicited and brought out, I am

21 sure I would have motions involving a Bruton problem, severance

22 and the like and obviously it would be an indication or an

23 implication that SabreTech had done something wrong. It might

24 be he was talking about PDS set him up or we don't know who or

25 what.

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178

 

1 I have not given counsel an opportunity. I presume --

2 maybe you don't object to it. I may be wasting my breath. Do

3 you object to it?

4 MS. RASKIN: Yes, we do for precisely the reasons you

5 have identified.

6 THE COURT: You probably have better reasons. I

7 haven't given it any thought.

8 MS. RASKIN: I think the relevance of it is

9 questionable and to the extent Mrs. Heck is going to try to

10 suggest an implication that the jury should draw, it obviously

11 is that Eugene in saying "they" meaning SabreTech, the

12 defendant in the case, or Danny Gonzalez, presumably is it him

13 up, and that creates serious Bruton problems because we are in

14 a position where we can't cross examine Mr. Florence as to what

15 he said and what he meant.

16 THE COURT: I presume the others join in this

17 objection?

18 MR. DUNLAP: Yes, Your Honor, I join.

19 THE COURT: No one ops out.

20 I will sustain the objection and direct the government

21 not to get into that issue.

22 Anything else before we bring the jury?

23 MS. MILLER: No, sir.

24 THE COURT: Anything from the defense before we bring

25 the jury in?

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179

 

1 MR. RASKIN: No, Your Honor.

2 (Jury present.)

3 THE COURT: Would someone ask the witness to resume

4 the stand, please.

5 You remain under oath, sir

6 Thereupon --

7

8 ROBERT RODRIGUEZ,

9 called as a witness herein, having been previously duly sworn,

10 was examined and testified further as follows:

11 BY MS. MILLER: (Continuing.)

12 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, placed before you is Government's Exhibit

13 77H and ask you to look at the contents?

14 A. Yes, ma'am.

15 Q. Do you recognize 77H?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Are you testifying here today pursuant to any agreement or

18 arrangement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that agreement or arrangement reflected in 77H?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 MS. MILLER: The government offers 77H into evidence.

23 MR. RASKIN: No objection.

24 MS. MOSCOWITZ: No objection.

25 THE COURT: 77H for identification is admitted into

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

180

1 evidence.

2 (A document was received in

3 evidence as Government's Exhibit 77H.)

4 BY MS. MILLER:

5 Q. Is 77H an immunity order and immunity agreement?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, what if any training did you receive while

8 you worked at either Dyn-Air Tech or SabreTech with regard to

9 hazardous material?

10 A. None.

11 Q. What if any training did you receive while you were at

12 Dyn-Air Tech or SabreTech with regard to oxygen generators?

13 A. None.

14 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I am showing you Government's Exhibit -- Mr.

15 Rodriguez, of the three MD 80 aircraft, 830, 803 and 802; do

16 you remember which one left SabreTech last?

17 A. Aircraft 802.

18 Q. Do you remember a time when 802 was being made ready to

19 leave SabreTech?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Do you remember what day of the week that was?

22 A. It was a weekend, a Saturday, I believe.

23 Q. What month?

24 A. The month of May.

25 Q. Was this before or after the crash of ValuJet flight 592?

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181

 

1 A. It was before.

2 Q. Where were you that Saturday in May before the crash of

3 ValuJet flight 592?

4 A. I was working on aircraft 802 early in the morning.

5 Q. What task were you doing on 802?

6 A. I was troubleshooting the auxiliary power unit.

7 Q. Was anyone working with you?

8 A. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Taber, Mr. Juan Mendez.

9 Q. Where was 802 physically located that morning?

10 A. It was halfway in the hangar with the tail sticking out so

11 we could light off the APU.

12 Q. Was there anyone -- withdrawn.

13 Were you working slowly or quickly?

14 A. We were working quickly.

15 Q. Was there a reason?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was the reason?

18 A. The aircraft was made clear to us early in the morning by

19 the lead that it had to be out, it had to leave.

20 Q. How was that made clear to you?

21 A. By the presence of a management, Mr. -- I believe it is

22 Galindo, was present and some ValuJet reps or higher-ups.

23 Q. Do you remember anyone else from management being present?

24 A. Mr. Danny Gonzalez.

25 Q. Do you recognize Danny Gonzalez in the courtroom?

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182

 

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 MR. DUNLAP: We stipulate to the identification.

3 THE COURT: Let the record reflect he has identified

4 Mr. Gonzalez.

5 BY MS. MILLER:

6 Q. Did you observe what Mr. Galindo or Mr. Gonzalez was doing?

7 A. Mr. Galindo was walking around the aircraft and so was

8 Mr. Gonzalez.

9 Q. Did there come a time when you were summoned somewhere?

10 A. Yes. Lou Casimir the lead mechanic paged us over the

11 intercom.

12 Q. Who is us?

13 A. Myself, Mr. Mendez and Mr. Taber.

14 Q. What were you instructed to do?

15 A. He was calling everybody to the work booth, work control

16 booth.

17 Q. Did you respond?

18 A. At first, no. Then the second page we responded.

19 Q. What was the reason you had not responded the first time?

20 A. Since we were outside with the noise we could not here

21 clearly what he was saying.

22 Q. You have told us you were called to a booth. What booth

23 are you referring to?

24 A. To the work control booth straight in front of the

25 aircraft.

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183

 

1 THE COURT: Is this the same booth we have been

2 hearing about, Ms. Miller?

3 MS. MILLER: No, it is not.

4 BY MS. MILLER:

5 Q. On this chart which is marked in evidence as Government's

6 Exhibit 71, the booth you are working about?

7 A. Right here.

8 THE COURT: Turn it so Mr. Raskin can see.

9 MR. RASKIN: I can see, Your Honor.

10 THE COURT: Tell me about the booth, I was making a

11 note. I didn't hear what you said. You were called to the

12 booth?

13 THE WITNESS: By the lead mechanic, Lou Casimir.

14 THE COURT: Who is "we"?

15 THE WITNESS: Mr. Taber, Mr. Mendez and myself.

16 BY MS. MILLER:

17 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I am placing before you Government's Exhibit

18 64A, 64B and 64C and I will ask if you recognize these items?

19 A. Yes, I recognize all three.

20 Q. What are these items?

21 A. This is a picture of the work control booth where they keep

22 all the items.

23 Q. Is this the booth you are talking about?

24 A. Yes, ma'am.

25 Q. That you were summoned to that day?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

184

 

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. MILLER: The government offers 64A, B and C in

3 evidence.

4 MS. MOSCOWITZ: No objection.

5 THE COURT: They are admitted into evidence.

6 (A document was received in

7 evidence as Government's Exhibit 64A, B and C.)

8 BY MS. MILLER:

9 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, if you could step down for one moment,

10 please and tell us first what portion of the booth is depicted

11 in 64A, and I am placing a blow up of it up?

12 A. This is the booth as you will come in on this exhibit.

13 Q. What are the racks that are shown in that picture?

14 A. Those are work items.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Rodriguez -- at the back of one of those racks

16 there appears to be a glass window. What is that?

17 A. That is a window facing the hangar area.

18 Q. You can turn your attention next to 64C, could you tell us

19 what is depicted in that shot?

20 A. This is the entrance to the booth right here.

21 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, can you correlate what is shown in the

22 photograph, 64C to the schematic drawing of the SabreTech

23 floor, Government's Exhibit 71 and show us the orientation of

24 those doors and windows we are looking at?

25 A. The doors are located right in here.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

185

 

1 Q. Is there a double door indicated on the chart in the little

2 room that says vending machine?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Is that the double door that is shown in the photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is there a gumball machine next to it?

7 A. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. How about the window?

9 A. The window is on the side right here. This is a hallway.

10 The aircraft was right here. You have one window here and one

11 window here.

12 Q. There are windows at right angles on the booth?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. With regard to 64B, if I may put that chart up, what view

15 of the booth does 64B depict?

16 A. This is towards the outside of the hangar and this is the

17 hallway of the hangar and the double doors will be back here.

18 Q. The window that is seen squarely head on is which window if

19 you can indicate to us on the schematic diagram?

20 A. This window is over here.

21 Q. Looking out into the corridor like space?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. Is the other window depicted in that photograph?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Can you show us where the other window is?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

186

 

1 A. Rights here, towards the outside of the hangar.

2 Q. Thank you. If you could take your seat, please.

3 Did you go to the booth?

4 A. Yes, we did.

5 Q. What order were you walking in, who was first, second and

6 third?

7 A. Mr. Taber was walking ahead of me. I was behind Mr. Taber

8 and Mr. Mendez was right behind me.

9 Q. Did you reach the booth?

10 A. Yes, we did.

11 Q. Did you see who was in the booth?

12 A. Mr. Florence was in the booth already and Mr. Casimir was

13 in the booth. Mr. Wiles and Mr. Gonzalez.

14 Q. Did you hear any conversation at that point?

15 A. When we entered the double doors, Mr. Casimir had paperwork

16 in his hand --

17 MR. RASKIN: Objection, Your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Casimer. He is telling what he saw. What

19 is the objection?

20 MR. RASKIN: I was premature, Your Honor. I object to

21 what Mr. Casimir might say, if anything.

22 THE COURT: What Casimer might have said.

23 Who did Mr. Casimir work for?

24 THE WITNESS: SabreTech.

25 THE COURT: Who did Mr. Florence work for at that

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

187

 

1 time, if you know?

2 THE WITNESS: PDS also for SabreTech.

3 THE COURT: How about Mr. Wiles?

4 THE WITNESS: SabreTech.

5 THE COURT: Mr. Gonzalez?

6 THE WITNESS: SabreTech.

7 THE COURT: Mr. Mendez?

8 THE WITNESS: I believe STS through SabreTech.

9 THE COURT: Your employer was?

10 THE WITNESS: PDS to SabreTech.

11 THE COURT: Ultimately you were all in the same room?

12 THE WITNESS: The entrance to the double doors.

13 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. He may state

14 what conversation took place in the presence of Mr. Florence

15 and the representatives of SabreTech.

16 MR. DUNLAP: For the record, this is part of my

17 standing objection I mentioned earlier.

18 THE COURT: Was Mr. Danny Gonzalez present at that

19 time?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

21 THE COURT: Overruled.

22 BY MS. MILLER:

23 Q. What did Mr. Casimir say?

24 A. He said guys, I have to get these papers signed.

25 Q. Did he show you anything?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

188

 

1 A. He held up look a work package.

2 Q. Could you see what the work package was for?

3 A. No, I could not.

4 Q. Did Mr. Casimir say anything else?

5 A. Basically that he needed the work package signed.

6 Q. Did anybody else say anything, that you heard?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What did you do?

9 A. At that point I told Mr. Taber we had to get back to the

10 aircraft. This is at the entrance to the first door of the

11 booth and I tapped Mr. Taber -- I told Mr. Taber, come on let's

12 go, we had to get this aircraft done because I had to leave at

13 12 o'clock for my other full-time job and Mr. Taber said wait a

14 minute, let me read this and he was reading paperwork.

15 Q. Do you know from your own knowledge what paperwork he was

16 reading?

17 A. When we stepped outside --

18 Q. Let me ask you first if you know what paperwork he was

19 reading?

20 A. At that point, no.

21 Q. Did you hear Mr. Taber say anything?

22 A. Yes. He said --

23 Q. Where were you when you heard Mr. Taber say something?

24 A. I was in the double door area.

25 Q. What did you hear Mr. Taber say?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

189

 

1 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, foundation.

2 THE COURT: Who does Mr. Taber work for at that time?

3 Who is he working for?

4 THE WITNESS: SabreTech through PDS.

5 THE COURT: This was right outside after the incident

6 you described, right outside after what you just told us about,

7 right outside the door?

8 THE WITNESS: Right.

9 THE COURT: Who was present?

10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Mendez was there and myself and

11 Mr. Taber; that was it.

12 THE COURT: The three of you?

13 THE WITNESS: Right.

14 THE COURT: You are walking back to the plane?

15 THE WITNESS: Right.

16 THE COURT: Overruled.

17 Tell the jury what was said.

18 BY THE WITNESS:

19 A. I said to him what are you reading, we have to go back to

20 the aircraft, and he said I was reading something about a PSU

21 panel, that is an oxygen panel. I read it and I signed what I

22 did which he had done, was to close the panels; to that effect,

23 and we went back to the aircraft.

24 BY MS. MILLER:

25 Q. Before you went back to the aircraft, did you hear

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

190

 

1 Mr. Taber say anything to Mr. Casimir?

2 A. In the area of the double doors, Mr. Taber as he was

3 walking out said this is all I am signing.

4 Q. As you were walking away from the booth, did you see

5 anything?

6 A. Yes, I saw Mr. Florence and Mr. Gonzalez next to each

7 other.

8 Q. If you were walking away from the booth, how is it you saw

9 this?

10 A. Because of the side window on the side of the room in the

11 hallway area walking towards the hangar, outside of the hangar,

12 excuse me.

13 Q. Where was Mr. Florence?

14 A. Mr. Florence was in the front window.

15 Q. Where was Mr. Gonzalez?

16 A. He was also by the front window.

17 Q. How close were they?

18 A. About two feet.

19 Q. What was Mr. -- first of all, did you see what Mr. Florence

20 was doing?

21 A. He was reading.

22 Q. Did you see what Mr. Gonzalez was doing?

23 A. He was next to him.

24 Q. Did you observe anything about what Mr. Gonzalez was doing?

25 MR. DUNLAP: Object to the relevance of this, Your

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

191

 

1 Honor.

2 THE COURT: Overruled.

3 You may answer the question. Did you see what

4 Mr. Gonzalez was doing?

5 MR. DUNLAP: Asked and answered.

6 THE COURT: Overruled.

7 BY THE WITNESS:

8 A. As I was walking back towards the aircraft, I saw him

9 passing him paperwork.

10 BY MS. MILLER:

11 Q. Who was the him who was passing?

12 A. Mr. Gonzalez.

13 Q. Who was the him who was receiving paperwork?

14 A. Mr. Florence.

15 Q. This was on a Saturday, is that correct, Mr. Rodriguez?

16 A. Yes, ma'am.

17 Q. Was there another time -- withdrawn.

18 Was there a time after this incident when you had some

19 involvement with oxygen generators again before the crash?

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 Q. Approximately when did that occur?

22 A. It was in May.

23 Q. What occurred on this day in May?

24 A. The lead mechanic, Mr. Casimir gathered the crew

25 together --

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

192

 

1 Q. Whom did he gather together?

2 A. His crew, the entire crew.

3 Q. Whom do you recall being there?

4 A. Being there, Mr. Taber, myself, Mr. Mendez. I believe

5 Mr. Sanchez and Mr. Florence.

6 Q. What did Mr. Casimir say?

7 A. He said --

8 MR. DUNLAP: Object again, hearsay.

9 THE COURT: Overruled.

10 You may answer the question.

11 BY THE WITNESS:

12 A. He said we have to clean the area up, the hangar up because

13 there was a potential customer coming in and we need to clean

14 up the area and we need to collect all these loose oxygen

15 generators.

16 BY MS. MILLER:

17 Q. At this time Mr. Rodriguez, was 802 still at SabreTech?

18 A. No, it had departed.

19 Q. What generators -- withdrawn.

20 Did you then do some work with regard to some

21 generators?

22 A. Yes. He had us collecting -- Mr. Casimir had us collecting

23 all the loose generators from the other side of the wall.

24 Q. What do you mean the other side of the wall, and again if I

25 might bring the chart up.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

193

 

1 Can you show us what you mean by the other side of the

2 wall?

3 A. This side right here.

4 Q. Are you indicating another hangar area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The MD 80 you were working on was on which side of the

7 wall?

8 A. This side.

9 Q. Do you know where the other MD 80, 802 and 803 were being

10 worked on?

11 A. One one was on this side of the wall and one was here.

12 MS. MILLER: May the record reflect Mr. Rodriguez was

13 indicating the upper right portion of the chart in the area

14 where 830 was, the lower -- the upper left portion of the chart

15 is the area where the 830 was. The lower left portion of the

16 chart as the area where 803 was and the lower right portion of

17 the chart is the area where 802 was?

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 BY MS. MILLER:

20 Q. What was on the other side of the wall that you were

21 assigned to do?

22 A. It was a combined effort between the 802 crew and the 803

23 crew and it was to collect all these loose cannisters laying on

24 racks.

25 Q. Approximately how many were there?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

194

 

1 A. About 30, 40.

2 Q. What was the condition of these loose cannisters?

3 A. The ones from the other wall, they were just loose. They

4 were not tied or anything.

5 Q. When you say cannisters, are you referring to oxygen

6 generators?

7 A. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. What was not tied?

9 A. The lanyards.

10 Q. Was there anything that had been done to any of the

11 lanyards on the oxygen generators that were on the other side

12 of the wall?

13 A. Yes, ma'am. Some of them were cut.

14 Q. What did you observe with regard to any shipping caps?

15 A. There were no shipping caps.

16 Q. What was the crew assigned to do specifically with regard

17 to these oxygen generators on the other side of the wall?

18 A. They were supposed to bring them to the side where aircraft

19 802 was. In the center there was a table and the lead had

20 us -- he brought boxes over so they could be placed in the

21 boxes to get them out of the way.

22 Q. Can you describe the boxes that he brought over?

23 A. Yes. One was like -- it was a box like the new ones came

24 in and the other two were like towel boxes.

25 Q. When you say it was a box like new ones came in, was it a

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

195

 

1 box -- withdrawn.

2 Mr. Rodriguez, I am handing you a copy of what has

3 been marked as Government's Exhibits 48A and B and I ask if you

4 recognize any of those photographs?

5 A. 48B.

6 Q. What is it that you recognize in 48B?

7 A. The boxes that the new oxygen generators came in.

8 Q. The boxes that you saw in 48B, do they look different in

9 any way from the boxes as you saw them -- withdrawn -- from the

10 box as you saw it on that day?

11 A. They were open. The boxes were open. The tops were open.

12 Then he had the wrapping that is depicted in this picture here.

13 Q. The picture shows some material in the interior that you

14 did not see that day; is that correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. What about 48A, do you recognize that?

17 A. They look like the boxes in 48B but are closed.

18 Q. The closed boxes that you see in 48A, do those depict the

19 kind of box you also saw that day in May?

20 A. They are similar, yes.

21 MS. MILLER: The government offers 48A in evidence.

22 MR. RASKIN: Objection.

23 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection foundation.

24 THE COURT: Sustained.

25 BY MS. MILLER:

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

196

 

1 Q. Approximately how long did you work on the task of

2 collecting the old generators?

3 A. Half of the day.

4 Q. Were there any old generators that you worked with from the

5 side of the wall where 802 had been?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What conditions were those generators in?

8 A. They were wrapped and taped and labeled.

9 Q. Where had those oxygen generators come from, if you know?

10 A. Aircraft 802.

11 Q. Were they loose or were they in something?

12 A. They were laying on top of each other in the box.

13 Q. Was that a box that the crew placed them in that day or

14 were they already in a box when you first started working with

15 them?

16 A. They were already in a box.

17 Q. What kind of box were the generators in from the 802 side

18 of the wall?

19 A. Like a towel box.

20 Q. What was the condition of the generators from the 802 side

21 of the wall with regard to any shipping caps?

22 A. They had no shipping caps.

23 Q. What did the crew do with regard to the loose generators

24 that were gathered from the 803 side of the wall?

25 A. Mr. Casimir had us wrap whatever loose lanyards they had

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

197

 

1 and tape and also labeled with the green tags.

2 Q. After they were taped and labeled, what if anything did you

3 do with them?

4 A. They were placed in the empty boxes he provided.

5 Q. Did you see how they were placed in the boxes?

6 A. They were laying on top of each other.

7 Q. Horizontally or lying down -- withdrawn.

8 Were they standing up in the box or lying down in the

9 box?

10 A. They were lying down in the box.

11 Q. How many generators approximately were put into each box?

12 A. We weren't told to count them. Just put them in a box.

13 You couldn't close the boxes.

14 Q. Did you see the boxes when they were full?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Was there more than one generator in there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is your estimate of how many generators there were in

19 each box?

20 A. About 40, 30 to 40.

21 Q. How many boxes did you see that day total?

22 A. Three boxes.

23 Q. How many came from the 803 side of the wall?

24 A. From the 803 side, it had to be two boxes.

25 Q. Leaving one from the 802 side of the wall?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

198

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. While you were working on this table, did you hear any

3 discussion?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. Who was present during this discussion?

6 A. Mr. Casimir and part of the crew.

7 Q. Which part of the crew?

8 A. Mr. Mendez, Taber, Sanchez and I can't recall the other two

9 people.

10 Q. What did you hear said?

11 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, hearsay.

12 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

13 MR. RASKIN: Same objection.

14 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.

15 Go ahead.

16 BY THE WITNESS:

17 A. It was asked --

18 BY MS. MILLER:

19 Q. Who asked?

20 A. I asked.

21 Q. Whom did you ask?

22 A. Mr. Casimir.

23 Q. What did you ask Mr. Casimir?

24 A. I asked him what are they going to do with those

25 generators.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

199

 

1 Q. Did Mr. Casimir respond?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. What did he say?

4 If you could please tell us the exact words.

5 THE COURT: Tell us what he said.

6 THE WITNESS: The exact words were they are going to

7 shit can them.

8 BY MS. MILLER:

9 Q. While you were doing this job, did you observe anything

10 happen to any of the generators?

11 A. Yes. There was one or two that went off, that were going

12 off by themselves.

13 Q. What did you observe in that regard?

14 A. I heard the sound of air escaping and you could smell the

15 chemical.

16 Q. Did you feel anything?

17 A. You could feel some heat.

18 Q. Did you hear anybody say anything with regard to any

19 generators going off?

20 A. Mr. Casimir said --

21 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, hearsay.

22 THE COURT: What did Mr. Casimir say?

23 Overruled.

24 BY THE WITNESS:

25 A. He said to be careful and place them down on the floor if

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

200

1 they go off.

2 BY MS. MILLER:

3 Q. Were there any other -- withdrawn.

4 Did you observe any managers in the area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Whom did you observe?

7 A. Mr. Wiles.

8 Q. Where was Mr. Wiles?

9 A. In the vicinity of the table.

10 Q. What was the condition of the boxes from 803 after they

11 were packed?

12 A. You couldn't close the boxes. They were all open.

13 Q. Why could you not close the boxes?

14 A. Because the boxes were full with them.

15 Q. Was any tape put on top of the boxes?

16 A. No, ma'am.

17 Q. In regard to the oxygen generators that were collected that

18 day and placed in the boxes, did you observe whether they were

19 expended or unexpended?

20 A. Some were unexpended, some were expended.

21 Q. Did you receive any instructions as to what to do with the

22 boxes?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Mr. Lou Casimir the crew chief --

25 MR. DUNLAP: Same objection.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

201

 

1 THE COURT: Overruled.

2 BY THE WITNESS:

3 A. -- instructed us to take them to the ValuJet hold area and

4 myself and Mr. Taber and Mr. Mendez proceeded to that area.

5 BY MS. MILLER:

6 Q. How were you to distribute the boxes among you?

7 A. One each.

8 Q. Did there come a time when you did not all proceed

9 together?

10 A. Yes, ma'am.

11 Q. When was that?

12 A. When we got to the entrance of their shipping and receiving

13 area, there is a gate and I placed the boxes down on the floor

14 and I told Mr. Taber I am not going in.

15 Q. Did Mr. Taber do anything at that point?

16 A. Yes. He went and spoke with Mr. Keith Ingram, the shipping

17 and receiving clerk.

18 Q. What happened to the boxes -- withdrawn.

19 What did you see happen to the boxes?

20 A. Mr. Taber came back and picked up the remaining boxes and

21 went to the back with Mr. Keith.

22 Q. Did you ever see those boxes again?

23 A. No, ma'am.

24 MS. MILLER: No further questions, Your Honor.

25 THE COURT: All right.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

202

 

1 Mr. Raskin.

2 BY MR. RASKIN:

3 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I will am Marty Raskin and I represent

4 SabreTech.

5 You testified on direct about wrapping the lanyards to

6 prevent them from going off. Can you explain to us how you did

7 that?

8 A. They were wrapped on top of the firing mechanism and they

9 were taped. They were taped in the direction if you tried to

10 pull it, you can't pull it out.

11 Q. Did you try to pull it out?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How did that come about?

14 A. As I wrapped them, I tried to pull the pin to secure it and

15 I pulled on it and you couldn't pull it.

16 Q. Did you pull on it hard or did you just give it a tiny tug?

17 A. I pulled hard on it.

18 Q. And it would not come out?

19 A. It would not come out.

20 Q. You only worked on these generators for one day; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, ma'am -- yes, sir. I am sorry about that.

23 Q. I was actually told my hair was different today.

24 THE COURT: He couldn't see the dress.

25 BY MR. RASKIN:

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

203

 

1 Q. While you only worked on them for one day, you are aware

2 the other members of that crew worked on them for some time; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know how long the rest of the crew worked on those

6 generators?

7 A. It had to be a span of a couple of days, maybe a week.

8 Q. Where did this take place?

9 A. About ten feet forward of that booth, the work control

10 booth.

11 Q. Right out in the open?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. ValuJet reps walking around?

14 A. Walking around having conversation with the gentlemen doing

15 the work.

16 Q. Do you know Mr. Bill Simmons?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who is he?

19 A. He is a ValuJet rep.

20 Q. Was he around during the course of this taping and wrapping

21 exercise?

22 A. Yes, he was.

23 Q. How about other mechanics other than your crew, were they

24 around on a regular basis during the course of this exercise?

25 A. Yes, they were.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

204

 

1 Q. Mr. Florence was tying and wrapping lanyards as well during

2 that period?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Let's go to the work booth where you saw certain things and

5 heard certain things concerning the signing of paperwork.

6 You said Danny Gonzalez was there and he was standing

7 next to Eugene Florence and handing him paper; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Do you know what paper he was handing him?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. Did you hear Mr. Gonzalez say anything to Mr. Florence?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Did you hear Mr. Florence say anything to Mr. Gonzalez?

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. And you left the booth fairly rapidly?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. When you walked by the booth you saw Mr. Florence sitting

18 at the desk; is that correct?

19 A. Mr. Florence was standing.

20 Q. I am sorry.

21 A. In the booth.

22 Q. What was he doing, was he signing anything?

23 A. He was reading.

24 Q. Did you see him sign anything at all?

25 A. I did not see him sign.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

205

 

1 Q. And you don't know what he was looking at?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Other than the fact it was a document of some sort?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. You testified on direct you took these oxygen generators in

6 boxes to I guess the stores area of SabreTech, another

7 department?

8 A. Shipping and receiving area.

9 Q. And in that shipping and receiving area there are other

10 things there other than shipping and receiving; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. In that area there was the ValuJet hold area?

14 A. The hold area, correct.

15 Q. That is where ValuJet's parts were stored; correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Is that a usual and customary part of a mechanic's job

18 taking old parts to the stores area?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you ever done it before?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. That was the only time?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Do you or other mechanics, is it a regular part of your job

25 description to do shipping?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

206

 

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Have you ever done shipping?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Are you aware of other mechanics at SabreTech having done

5 shipping?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. When you took out the old oxygen generators, I don't

8 remember whether you answered this question or not; but I think

9 you answered the question that you didn't see any warning

10 labels on the new generators. Did you see any warning labels

11 on the old generators that came off 802?

12 A. I did not.

13 Q. When you were in the work booth, and I will not limit the

14 question to when you were in the work booth. At any time you

15 worked at SabreTech, did anyone ask you to sign paperwork that

16 wasn't true?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. At SabreTech, did you ever sign any paperwork that wasn't

19 true?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Are you aware of anyone at SabreTech asking anybody else to

22 sign paperwork that wasn't true?

23 MS. MILLER: Objection, Your Honor.

24 THE COURT: That is pretty broad. Do you want to

25 rephrase it.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

207

 

1 You can say in his presence or something.

2 BY MR. RASKIN:

3 Q. Are you personally aware of anybody at SabreTech whoever

4 signed a false document?

5 A. Not in my presence, no, sir.

6 Q. Do you know of anyone who was ever disciplined or fired for

7 failing to sign false paperwork?

8 A. Not in my presence, no, sir.

9 MR. RASKIN: Nothing further.

10 THE COURT: Any other questions?

11 Ms. Moscowitz.

12 CROSS EXAMINATION

13 BY MS. MOSCOWITZ:

14 Q. Mr. Rodriguez, I am Jane Moscowitz I represent Eugene

15 Florence.

16 You described the boxes that you, Mr. Taber and

17 Mr. Mendez took to the ValuJet area. Mr. Florence didn't

18 participate in taking those boxes over there; correct?

19 A. No, ma'am.

20 Q. There was no bubble wrap on those boxes?

21 A. No.

22 Q. The boxes were opened, you could see the generators in

23 there?

24 A. Right. You couldn't close the boxes.

25 Q. You had put green tags on those generators at Mr. Casimir's

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

208

 

1 instructions?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did you and the other mechanics write on those tags?

4 A. Out of date.

5 Q. Did you say also that they were O 2 generators?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. You spoke to Mr. Taber about why those generators were

8 being taken to the ValuJet hold area; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And he told you, did he not, the parts were going to be

11 there until the customer decided what to do with them?

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. Sir, do you have personal familiarity with Eugene

14 Florence's signature?

15 A. No, ma'am.

16 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Nothing further, Your Honor.

17 THE COURT: Redirect?

18 MS. MILLER: Did Mr. Dunlap go?

19 MR. DUNLAP: No, Your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Anything on redirect?

21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

22 BY MS. MILLER:

23 Q. You told us you pulled on the lanyards of some generators.

24 Do you recall that testimony?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

209

 

1 Q. You didn't test every generator?

2 A. No, ma'am.

3 Q. Did you personally enter the stores area with the oxygen

4 generators?

5 A. No, ma'am.

6 MS. MILLER: Nothing further.

7 THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you very much.

8 (Witness excused.)

9 THE COURT: Next witness, please.

10 MR. BRIGHAM: The United States will call John Taber.

11 Thereupon - -

12

13 JOHN TABER,

14 called as a witness by the Government, having been first duly

15 sworn, testified as follows:

16 DIRECT EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

18 Q. Mr. Taber, what do you do for a living?

19 A. I work for American Airlines as a aircraft mechanic.

20 Q. Do you have a specific certificate?

21 A. I have air frame and power plant certificates.

22 Q. What is an air frame and power plant certificate?

23 A. Air frame allows me to work on the air frame of the

24 aircraft. The power plant allows me to work on the engines.

25 It is an FAA certificate.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

210

 

1 Q. What kind of training do you receive for that?

2 A. Training?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I receive training on various types of aircraft. American

5 gives training on each aircraft.

6 Q. How long does it take before you are able to obtain an A&P

7 certificate?

8 A. It took me three years of schooling and a couple of more

9 years of on the job experience to obtain mine.

10 Q. Is your training similar to that of other A&P certificate

11 holders?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was there a time you were working at SabreTech?

14 A. Yes, there was.

15 Q. When was that approximately when you started?

16 A. Approximately in September of 1995.

17 Q. At that time it was known as Dyn-Air Tech?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Did you have a supervisor?

20 A. Yes, I had a couple.

21 Q. Who were your supervisors?

22 A. At that time I had a supervisor named Manny Quintana.

23 Q. After your work with Mr. Quintana, who did you work under?

24 A. Mr. Dave Wiles.

25 Q. And he was your immediate supervisor?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

211

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there a position that is known as lead mechanic?

3 A. Yes, sir, there is.

4 Q. Who was your lead mechanic?

5 A. Lou Casimir.

6 Q. When you started at SabreTech you were working in the

7 capacity as an A&P certificated mechanic?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. While you were there at SabreTech, did there come a time

10 you started working on ValuJet MD 80?

11 A. Yes, there was.

12 Q. Explain to the members of the jury what an MD 80 is?

13 THE COURT: I think we heard of that. The jury could

14 probably tell him. It is a DC-9.

15 THE WITNESS: The newer version of the DC-9.

16 THE COURT: What did you do on it?

17 THE WITNESS: Pretty much all the mechanical work on

18 it. Anything that dealt with mechanical.

19 THE COURT: Was it a particular airplane or airline?

20 THE WITNESS: We were working on the value jets

21 airline, the M.D. '80s came in for overhaul.

22 THE COURT: Thank you.

23 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

24 Q. Who told you to start working on the MD 80?

25 A. That is what my crew did. We worked on the ValuJet

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

212

 

1 aircraft.

2 Q. It would be your supervisor, Mr. Casimir that would give

3 you those orders?

4 A. Mr. Casimir was my lead. He gave me the orders.

5 Q. When did you start working on them approximately?

6 A. The MD 80S?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Approximately January of 1996.

9 Q. What type of tasks did you have while you were working on

10 the MD 80s

11 A. Various tasks. Anything to do with the MD 80s on the

12 overhaul. I could do anything.

13 Q. Would any of those tasks involve oxygen generators?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. What was one of your first tasks with respect to the oxygen

16 generators?

17 A. I received a work card that asked me to go up and write

18 down all the serial numbers and expiration dates of all the

19 generators.

20 Q. You received that work card from whom?

21 A. My lead, Lou Casimir.

22 Q. Explain to the members of the jury what is involved in

23 recording the serial numbers of all the oxygen generators?

24 A. My work card asked me to record all the serial numbers and

25 it is also explained they had a twelve year expiration date on

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

213

 

1 them. As I went out there, I opened up the PSUs, looked at the

2 generators to record their serial numbers and expiration dates

3 and found out they were out of date.

4 Q. I would like to show you what has been marked I believe --

5 MR. BRIGHAM: May I have one moment, Your Honor?

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 While he is doing that. You said you checked and they

8 were all out of date. Is that on one airplane or three

9 airplanes?

10 THE WITNESS: There were three of them. I was only

11 working on aircraft 802.

12 THE COURT: You checked 802 for the expiration date

13 and the serial number on each oxygen canister?

14 THE WITNESS: As I was going down I went to about five

15 of them. Once I found five of them were out of date, I

16 presumed most of them were out of date so I went back to my

17 lead at the time and told him all these things had 14 years.

18 They were out of date for two years. I assumed most of them

19 were and I asked him what he wanted me to do.

20 THE COURT: Thank you.

21 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

22 Q. I would like to show you what has been marked as 28C and

23 ask you if this will assist you in describing the work you were

24 doing on the MD 80s?

25 A. Yes.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

214

 

1 Q. What does this depict?

2 A. It depicts they removed all the seats out of the MD 80s.

3 It has the PSUs in the overheads.

4 Q. Would it be fair to say this fairly and accurately depicts

5 what the interior of an MD 80 looks like without the seats?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. BRIGHAM: I move to admit, Your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Any objection?

9 MS. MOSCOWITZ: No, Your Honor.

10 MR. RASKIN: No, Your Honor.

11 MR. DUNLAP: No.

12 THE COURT: What number is this?

13 MR. BRIGHAM: 28C the chart version.

14 THE COURT: Government's Exhibits 28C is admitted into

15 evidence.

16 (A document was received in

17 evidence as Government's Exhibit 28C.)

18 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

19 Q. Mr. Taber, I will take the liberty of placing this on a

20 pedestal and with the Court's permission I would like you to

21 step down?

22 THE COURT: You may step down, sir.

23 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

24 Q. If you would explain to the members of the jury what these

25 photographs depict?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

215

 

1 A. It looks like it is an MD 80 --

2 THE COURT: Marshal, would you hand him a microphone,

3 please.

4 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

5 Q. Would you find a pointer useful?

6 A. Sure.

7 Q. You were telling us what these photographs depict?

8 A. It is depicts if we are looking aft --

9 Q. When you say aft, remember not all of us know aviation

10 terms. Tell us what that means?

11 A. The rear of the aircraft. All the seats were pulled out.

12 The side walls, PSU and overhead vents.

13 Q. PSUs, what does that stand for?

14 A. Passenger service units.

15 Q. So we are looking -- you are referring to for the record

16 the top photograph?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. I would like you to direct your attention to the bottom

19 photograph. What does that depict?

20 A. It depicts these are the PSUs. The PSUs are pulled down.

21 Q. These would be PSUs which would contain oxygen generators?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Is that looking aft also?

24 A. I can only speculate. I can't tell if that is a cockpit

25 door or the rear of the airplane on this view.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

216

 

1 Q. On the MD 80, how are the seats arranged?

2 A. On an MD 80 and DC-9, the seats are arranged where on the

3 right-hand side you have three seats and the left-hand side you

4 have two seats.

5 Q. I would like to show you what has been marked as

6 Government's Exhibit 28B, chart version. Can you tell us if

7 this would be useful in your testimony describing the interior

8 of an MD 80 with respect to the seat arrangements?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. BRIGHAM: I would move to admit, Your Honor.

11 MR. RASKIN: No objection.

12 THE COURT: 28B is admitted into evidence.

13 (A document was received in

14 evidence as Government's Exhibit 28B.)

15 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

16 Q. Mr. Taber, we will have to look down and maybe even squat

17 down to see this a little bit but explain what this depicts?

18 A. We are looking affidavit in the MD 80 or DC-9. The

19 left-hand side two seats. The right-hand side, three seats.

20 Q. Fair enough.

21 With respect to the other chart you have just

22 testified about, you said you had to check the oxygen

23 generators for serial numbers?

24 A. Serial numbers and expiration dates.

25 Q. Explain to us how you did that?

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1 A. I lowered the PSU unit right here and I can lift up the

2 insert a little bit and turn the oxygen generator to where I

3 could see on the generator itself, it has the serial numbers,

4 the part numbers and expiration dates on the generator.

5 Q. In doing that, what method did you use to record the

6 information?

7 A. It was on the work card. I had special paper to record

8 each row.

9 Q. Who had given you the work card?

10 A. My lead.

11 Q. You may resume your seat.

12 You were required to fill out paperwork?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. That was paperwork that was part of the MD 80 work that you

15 were doing?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. You were in the process of a process known as a C check; is

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. For those of us who don't understand that term, what do you

21 mean by C check?

22 A. It is what they use to -- how a check is, you have A, B and

23 Cs. Some Cs are heavy. That means heavy maintenance.

24 Completely tore apart and overhauled.

25 Q. It would be a heavy maintenance work in this case on an MD

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

218

 

1 80?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You are issued paperwork, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE COURT: I think you are leading the witness a lot.

6 You should ask the witness what he does.

7 MR. BRIGHAM: I will do that, Your Honor.

8 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

9 Q. After you recorded the serial numbers on the paperwork,

10 what did you do next?

11 A. I recorded the serial number. I went through five of them

12 and saw they were out of date. I went back to my lead and

13 explained to him these things were out of date.

14 Q. The oxygen generators?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. On what aircraft?

17 A. Aircraft 802.

18 Q. What did you do after that?

19 A. After I told him that they were all out of date, he

20 discussed it with his supervisor. He came back and said start

21 removing the generators out of the aircraft, the inserts,

22 masks, everything.

23 Q. I would like to show you what I believe has been marked as

24 Government's Exhibit 29. Do you recognize that?

25 A. Yes, sir. It is a PSU unit.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 Q. You are talking about the insert. What part of this

2 Government's Exhibit 29 are you referring to?

3 A. This is the insert which also can be considered a heat

4 shield.

5 Q. It is a heat shield for the oxygen generator?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. You removed those?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It was not just the oxygen generator you removed but the

10 entire unit?

11 A. Which consists of the mask, the shield and the generator in

12 it, all in one unit.

13 Q. What did you do with those units after you removed them?

14 A. At first I just laid them down and tagged each one of them.

15 Q. What do you mean you tagged each one of them?

16 A. I wrote down what they were, they were oxygen generators.

17 I wrote down the part numbers on them, the serial numbers and

18 what row they came out of.

19 Q. Approximately how many units did you remove?

20 A. Between 70 and 74 units.

21 Q. When you tagged them, what kind of tag did you use?

22 A. I used what you call a green tag. It is considered a

23 repairable tag.

24 Q. I would like to show you an exhibit and ask you if you

25 recognize that exhibit. That would be Government Exhibit 45.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

220

1 Do you recognize that?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. What is that?

4 A. It is a repairable tag.

5 THE COURT: Is that what you put on the cannisters?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

7 THE COURT: Let's move on.

8 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

9 Q. And you filled out the information that is on that tag?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. At the bottom of the tag it asks for a reason. What reason

12 did you place there?

13 A. Out of date.

14 Q. You placed the units, you said on the plane floor?

15 A. At first, yes.

16 Q. What did you do after that?

17 A. I went back to my leads and asked them what they wanted to

18 do with these things.

19 Q. What happened next?

20 A. He discussed it with the supervisor and came back and he

21 said we will put them in boxes for the time being.

22 Q. What did you do?

23 A. We went and retrieved some boxes and went and put them in

24 the boxes.

25 Q. You said you went and talked with your supervisor, who was

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

221

 

1 that?

2 A. I talked with my lead first who is Lou.

3 Q. He is a SabreTech employee?

4 A. Yes, he is the lead.

5 Q. After he told you to put them in boxes, what did you do?

6 A. I put them in boxes. After I put them in boxes, I wrote on

7 the boxes O 2 generators and put them on the inspection stand.

8 Q. Why did you write O 2 on the side of the boxes?

9 A. So we would know what they were.

10 Q. Is that because you understood oxygen to be dangerous?

11 A. Mainly so they would know what they were.

12 Q. When if ever did you place the word empty on any of these

13 green tags?

14 A. I never did.

15 Q. What kind of boxes did you place these units, these oxygen

16 heat shield units in?

17 A. I placed them -- at first we went and retrieved some boxes

18 like hand towel boxes.

19 Q. When you say hand towel boxes what do you mean?

20 A. Like boxes you would see in stores where they would put the

21 hand towels all in one big box then put them on the shelves.

22 Q. The generators would be placed in there with the heat

23 Shields?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you do with those boxes?

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1 A. I put them on the inspection stand.

2 Q. Where was the inspection stand located?

3 A. Approximately five feet in front of the aircraft.

4 Q. This is MD 80, 802?

5 A. 802.

6 Q. How long did the boxes stay there?

7 A. Probably about a month and a half.

8 Q. I would like to show you what has been marked as

9 Government's Exhibit 25 and 27 -- excuse me, 26.

10 While you were doing this work, did you have certain

11 paperwork in front of you?

12 A. A month and a half later I did, yes.

13 Q. While you were removing the units, you did not?

14 A. Not the work cards, no.

15 Q. While you were working, did you have any maintenance

16 manuals with you?

17 A. I went to look up in the maintenance manual just how to

18 remove the insert itself, the whole unit. That is all I looked

19 at.

20 Q. That is all you looked at?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. After you had placed the boxes on the inspection stand,

23 what did you do next?

24 A. That was the end of it for about a month and a half.

25 Q. What happened after about a month and a half?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

223

 

1 A. I believe the new generators came in and we started to

2 replace them.

3 Q. Approximately when did the new generators come in?

4 A. Approximately a month and a half later. I am not sure on

5 the dates. I would say around March.

6 Q. How soon before the crash did they come in?

7 A. About a month or so, at least a month and a half before the

8 crash.

9 Q. Would it be fair to say approximately April of 1996?

10 A. I believe they came in around March, maybe mid March. It

11 could be April.

12 Q. How did they come in? How were they packaged?

13 A. There is twelve to a box. Each unit was separately packed.

14 It was hermetically sealed onto a cardboard which was wrapped

15 around the unit.

16 Q. Did you see the lanyards or strings?

17 A. The lanyards were wrapped around the trigger.

18 Q. What label if any did you see on the boxes?

19 A. They had yellow labels on the boxes but they were taped

20 over by the manufacturer.

21 Q. Do you know they were taped over by the packing

22 manufacturer or are you speculating?

23 A. I know they were.

24 Q. Were you able to see the yellow diamond?

25 A. You could see partial of it.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

224

 

1 Q. I want to show you what has been marked as Government

2 Exhibits 48A and 48B. Take a look at those.

3 The items that are depicted in those photographs do

4 they resemble how the boxes looked that you received?

5 A. They resemble exactly the way the boxes looked.

6 Q. Would it assist you in your testimony to refer to those

7 photographs in describing how the boxes looked?

8 THE COURT: If he can't remember now he can look at

9 them. He apparently can, he has been testifying very clearly.

10 Let's lay them aside. You only refresh his recollection if he

11 needs it is.

12 Do you remember what the new cannisters looked like

13 when they came in on the boxes?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

15 THE COURT: You don't need the picture?

16 THE WITNESS: No.

17 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

18 Q. The label you saw was a yellow triangle label?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. There was a depiction of a flame --

21 MR. RASKIN: Objection.

22 THE COURT: Sustained. Don't lead the witness.

23 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

24 Q. What did you see on the yellow label?

25 A. Like I said the package tape is over it. Some of them you

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

225

 

1 could see a little bit of the flame coming from underneath that

2 tape, yes.

3 Q. During this time that the new generators were coming in,

4 were you working with Mr. Eugene Florence, the defendant?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. What was he doing during this process?

7 A. He started to work with me as we started to remove the old

8 generators and insert the new ones.

9 Q. How familiar did he appear to be with the removal and

10 insertion of oxygen generators?

11 THE COURT: Are you asking him for the state of mind

12 of Mr. Florence and his opinion of it?

13 The objection which wasn't made is sustained.

14 MR. RASKIN: Thank you, Your Honor.

15 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

16 Q. During the time you were working with Mr. Florence, was he

17 handling oxygen generators?

18 A. At this time he was handling them with me.

19 Q. How was he handling them?

20 A. He was handling them normally.

21 Q. What was he doing with them?

22 A. He was removing the old generators and putting in the new

23 generators.

24 Q. Into the MD 80?

25 A. We were putting them into the heat shield inserts.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

226

 

1 Q. That was outside the MD 80; is that right?

2 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, leading.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

5 Q. Where was that taking place?

6 A. Outside the aircraft on a table.

7 Q. The generators you were installing, were they new or old

8 ones?

9 A. They were new generators.

10 Q. What were they coming from, what kind of containers?

11 A. They were coming out of these boxes.

12 Q. While you were engaged in the removal of the old generators

13 and installation of the new generators, what if anything did

14 you observe that was unusual about the old units that were in

15 the boxes?

16 A. The old units in the boxes?

17 Q. Yes.

18 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, leading.

19 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

20 Q. What what if anything did you observe?

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 The old generators once you removed them, did you

23 notice anything unusual about them?

24 THE WITNESS: I understand now. You mean after I got

25 them and we started to remove the old generators from the boxes

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

227

 

1 and going to start putting these in? A couple of heat

2 shields --

3 THE COURT: After you took the old ones out, what did

4 you do with them, generally, and I know you took a bunch of

5 them out?

6 THE WITNESS: We took them out of the boxes still in

7 the heat shield. I sat it on the table and I said we will do

8 one at a time.

9 THE COURT: You put a new generator in them?

10 THE WITNESS: We put the new generator in them.

11 THE COURT: The 14 year old mask that had been in

12 those shields, they were still good?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes.

14 THE COURT: After you have put the removed old

15 generator on the table at the end of the day, did you put them

16 someplace or did somebody else put them someplace?

17 THE WITNESS: I put them back in these boxes right

18 here. I put them back in the boxes that the new generators

19 came in because it was a much sturdier box.

20 THE COURT: You put the old used generators box. When

21 you took the new generator out you replaced with an old one,

22 not necessarily right then but later?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

25 Q. What did you notice about the condition of the heat shields

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

228

 

1 in the boxes where you originally put them?

2 A. I started to pull a couple of them out and a couple of them

3 were meltsed.

4 Q. What do you mean by that?

5 A. Apparently they were melted a little bit.

6 Q. Can you explain to us in more detail how they were melted?

7 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, asked and answered.

8 THE COURT: I would have to sustain as to the form of

9 the question.

10 MR. BRIGHAM: I will move on, Your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Melted is melted. Like candle wax melts?

12 THE WITNESS: Plastic melts.

13 THE COURT: They appeared to be melted.

14 Next question.

15 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

16 Q. I would like to show you Government's Exhibit 29 and show

17 us which part of this unit, and I believe you were only talking

18 about this unit part here; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection, leading.

21 THE COURT: Sustained

22 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

23 Q. What part of this unit were you talking about?

24 A. This is the heat shield which consists of all of the mask

25 and everything.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

229

 

1 Q. Show us which part was melted?

2 A. This part right here.

3 Q. Under the heat shield, what if anything did you see with

4 respect to the heat shields that were melted?

5 A. What was under the heat shield?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. The old generator was still there.

8 Q. What was the condition of that old generator, active?

9 A. It had been deactivated. The one on top of it had been

10 reactivated.

11 Q. What did you do after seeing the heat shields that were

12 melted?

13 A. We were working on the table and the supervisor and my lead

14 came around and I showed it to them.

15 Q. When you say your supervisor and your lead, who are you

16 talking about?

17 A. Lou Casimir and Dave Wiles.

18 Q. Tell us what was said during that conversation?

19 A. It has been a long time. I guess I told them to look at

20 them and I was told not to worry about those, just to throw

21 those away.

22 Q. As part of your conversation, what if anything did you say

23 about shipping caps?

24 A. That was later.

25 Q. Was anyone present during that conversation?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

230

 

1 A. Dave Wiles was my supervisor I had a conversation with.

2 Q. Was anyone else present?

3 A. I believe Eugene was present.

4 Q. After that, what did you do with respect to the oxygen

5 generators?

6 A. After which?

7 Q. You reinstalled the new generators?

8 A. I installed the new generators.

9 Q. What did you do after that?

10 A. After I -- that took about a month. You are talking about

11 after that?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. We installed them into the PSU unit.

14 Q. Then into the MD 80?

15 A. Not yet. They were getting ready to go into the MD 80. We

16 were installing them onto the PSU unit here.

17 Q. What did you do after that?

18 A. I installed the right side only into the MD 80.

19 Q. The three seat side?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Objection.

22 THE COURT: Don't lead your witness, please.

23 MR. BRIGHAM: Yes, Your Honor.

24 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

25 Q. Did you subsequently have any other conversations

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

231

 

1 concerning shipping caps?

2 A. Just with Dave Wiles. With him. I am not sure who you

3 want to know. With all the mechanics on the crew and a couple

4 of inspectors.

5 Q. When did that take place?

6 A. It took place like a month -- as we were going along.

7 Different times, different places. The whole months.

8 Q. What was said -- what if anything was said regarding

9 shipping caps?

10 A. What it was, a lot of them came up to me --

11 MR. RASKIN: Objection. We don't know who is talking.

12 THE COURT: As best you can think of one of these

13 conversations where you talked to somebody about the shipping

14 caps and tell us, just think back and pick out one of the

15 conversations and first tell us approximately when it was in

16 reference to something, whatever you can think of. Maybe a

17 stage of the work you were in and tell us who was present,

18 before you tell us what was said.

19 MR. RASKIN: I am sorry. The same objection as with

20 Mr. Rodriguez, a standing objection.

21 THE COURT: It may well be he can't say anything about

22 what was said, but I don't know that until we have the

23 requisite predicate showing who, when and where. We should do

24 that in every conversation. You objected on that basis, I have

25 sustained that objection.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

232

 

1 I have asked the witness because he worked there

2 during this whole period of time to think of one conversation.

3 Pick a date or approximate time first then after you have done

4 that I will ask you some more questions.

5 Do you have one of these conversations where you

6 talked to somebody about the shipping caps? Do you have it

7 kind of in your mind?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

9 THE COURT: Could you tell us approximately when it

10 was, maybe in reference to when you were taking the PSU units

11 out or putting them back; when was it, pick a time

12 approximately?

13 THE WITNESS: I had a conversation with Robert

14 Rodriguez at one time.

15 THE COURT: When was that?

16 THE WITNESS: When we were all working on it and

17 replacing the old generators with the new generators.

18 THE COURT: Mr. Taber, you talked to Roberts Rodriguez

19 when you were replacing them with the new generators. Where

20 did this conversation take place?

21 THE WITNESS: In front of the aircraft at the table.

22 THE COURT: Was anybody there besides you and Mr.

23 Rodriguez?

24 THE WITNESS: I believe Eugene Florence was.

25 THE COURT: Did you say anything, and we are talking

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

233

 

1 now about the shipping caps; did you say anything or did either

2 of the other two say anything to you on that occasion about the

3 shipping caps, yes or no?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 THE COURT: At this point in time I would normally ask

6 him what was said identifying the speaker and who was speaking

7 and I will ask him but before you answer, let them object if

8 they wish to.

9 MR. RASKIN: The same hearsay objection, Your Honor.

10 MR. DUNLAP: The same hearsay and a standing

11 objection.

12 THE COURT: All right, fine.

13 Tell the jury what you said, what Mr. Rodriguez said

14 and what Mr. Florence said, if anything? If Mr. Florence

15 walked away, do not tell us what was said. It can only be in

16 his hearing.

17 Can you do that?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

19 THE COURT: Tell the jury.

20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rodriguez and I were working on the

21 generators. He asked me about the shipping caps. I told him

22 that we didn't have any shipping caps.

23 THE COURT: What did he say after that?

24 THE WITNESS: What are we going to do with these

25 things.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

234

 

1 THE COURT: What did you say?

2 THE WITNESS: I showed him how I was wrapping the

3 lanyards around the trigger to hold the pin in. I could tell

4 you what I told him. I also told him that Dave Wiles our

5 supervisor told me we didn't have any.

6 THE COURT: Did you show him how you were wrapping the

7 lanyard?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 THE COURT: Would you describe to the jury how you

10 were wrapping the lanyard?

11 THE WITNESS: I was taking the lanyards and pulling

12 them tightly against the pin which would hold it in and

13 wrapping it around tightly around the trigger so it would hold

14 the pin in.

15 THE COURT: Did you then tie it off or tape it?

16 THE WITNESS: I taped it to the generator itself.

17 THE COURT: After you have showed that to Mr.

18 Rodriguez, did he do the same thing or start doing the same

19 thing?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

21 THE COURT: Did you show Mr. Florence the same

22 procedure?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I did.

24 THE COURT: Did you observe him doing the same thing?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, he did.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

235

 

1 THE COURT: Next question.

2 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

3 Q. Did there ever come a time with respect to any actions with

4 respect to oxygen generators -- let me rephrase it.

5 Was there ever a time active oxygen generators were

6 rendered inactive?

7 A. Yes, a couple of them.

8 Q. Explain to us what you saw in that respect?

9 A. A couple of them had already been set off that were in the

10 boxes and I set a couple off, one or two, maybe.

11 Q. The ones that had been set off in the boxes, what did you

12 observe with respect to those?

13 A. Those are the ones that had the melted heat shield?

14 Q. You yourself set off three?

15 A. One or two.

16 Q. When did you do that?

17 A. That was as we were transferring the ones over.

18 Q. What was your reason for doing that?

19 A. Just to see what they would do, how they reacted.

20 Q. Who saw you doing that?

21 A. I can't recollect at this time.

22 Q. What was the results?

23 A. They got hot.

24 Q. Did they get extremely hot or just warm?

25 A. I knew they were going to get hot. I just set it on the

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

236

 

1 ground.

2 Q. During this process, when if ever did you see shipping caps

3 placed on the old generators that had been removed from the MD

4 80?

5 A. I never seen shipping caps placed on the generators.

6 Q. When did you ever see shipping caps at SabreTech?

7 A. Only on the new generators that came in.

8 Q. What was done with those shipping caps?

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. Were you ever involved in the drop test?

11 A. No, I wasn't.

12 Q. I believe you testified there came a time you collected old

13 generators that were around the airplane?

14 A. Yes, there was.

15 Q. What did you do?

16 A. We were cleaning up and people were just bringing me

17 generators that were left around the hangar from the other

18 aircraft.

19 Q. What did you physically do with the oxygen generators?

20 A. I tagged them and wrapped the lanyards around the trigger

21 just as I was doing mine.

22 Q. Where did you put them after that?

23 A. Into the boxes.

24 Q. What boxes were those?

25 A. Those were the boxes that the new ones came in.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

237

 

1 Q. The ones you described with the yellow diamond?

2 A. Yes.

3 THE COURT: That was taped over. His testimony is it

4 was taped over. You could only see part of the yellow diamond.

5 We ought to be fair.

6 MR. BRIGHAM: I agree.

7 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

8 Q. How visible was the yellow diamond?

9 A. You could see --

10 MR. MOSCOWITZ: Asked and answered.

11 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. He may

12 describe what he could see. He hasn't been asked that yet.

13 BY THE WITNESS:

14 A. You could see the top of the diamond and the bottom of the

15 diamond. You couldn't see the middle of the diamond.

16 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

17 Q. Who was helping you do that?

18 A. Robert Rodriguez was helping me do that, pick that --

19 Q. At what time?

20 A. At different times all of us were doing it and at one time

21 it was just Robert and I when clean up was happening.

22 Q. When if ever did Mr. Florence participate?

23 A. He only participated in it when we were installing the new

24 generators.

25 Q. Were the boxes with the yellow labels with the tape present

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

238

 

1 then also?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After you filled up the boxes, where did you take them?

4 A. I took them to the ValuJet hold area.

5 Q. What did you do with them there?

6 A. I set them on the floor.

7 Q. Where did you set them on the floor?

8 A. In the ValuJet hold area in front of the shelves.

9 Q. When you set them there, were the boxes opened or closed?

10 A. Open.

11 Q. Sir, did there come a time you were summoned to sign

12 certain paperwork?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. When was that, approximately?

15 A. Approximately about the first week in May or right there at

16 the end of April.

17 Q. Who were you summoned by?

18 A. By my lead, Lou Casimer.

19 Q. What did he do after he summoned you?

20 A. He summoned the whole crew and we walked into the office.

21 Q. What office was this?

22 A. SabreTech work booth.

23 Q. I would like to show you what has been admitted as

24 Government's Exhibits 64B, C and A.

25 Do you recognize these, 64A?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

239

 

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is that?

3 A. That is the podium that the work cards were being held in.

4 Q. Was this the work booth you were referring to?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that similar from a different perspective 64B and 64C?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. What did you see once you entered that work booth?

9 A. I walked in and I saw my lead standing in front of one of

10 the counters.

11 Q. Who was that?

12 A. Lou Casimir.

13 Q. Who else did you see there?

14 A. As I moved forward, I saw Mr. Gonzalez and Mr. Florence

15 standing to the left.

16 Q. How far away were they approximately?

17 A. Eight to ten feet.

18 Q. What was Mr. Gonzalez doing?

19 A. It looked like they were signing some papers.

20 Q. What was Mr. Gonzalez doing with the paperwork, was he

21 signing the paperwork?

22 MR. DUNLAP: Asked and answered.

23 THE COURT: Let's don't lead him. You walked in and

24 you saw Mr. Gonzalez and Mr. Florence. What if anything were

25 they doing or what did you see them doing?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

240

1 THE WITNESS: They were standing there. I wasn't

2 paying much attention. It look liked both of them -- I can't

3 remember if Mr. Gonzalez was signing at the time or not; but

4 they were signing paperwork -- I don't know if both of them did

5 or not.

6 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

7 Q. What did you see Mr. Florence doing?

8 A. Signing paperwork.

9 Q. When you walked in, what if anything did you see on the

10 counters?

11 A. That is where all the work cards and engineering orders

12 were, spread out.

13 Q. What opportunity did you have to see those documents?

14 A. Opportunity then? I walked up to the counter.

15 THE COURT: Tell the jury. You walked in and what

16 happened.

17 BY THE WITNESS:

18 A. The lead asked us all we needed to get this paperwork

19 signed off and basically we were working on other components at

20 the time and we said we weren't going to sign anything off

21 until we read it. Most of the crew started walking out the

22 booth.

23 Mr. Casimer called me over and said Johnny, could you

24 please sign these items off here because I know you did this,

25 which I did take the time to read which I did. It was to

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 install right-hand side PSU units in the aircraft and I signed

2 those three off.

3 THE COURT: Did you see anybody else doing the same

4 thing, signing any of the work cards or walking out?

5 THE WITNESS: Most of the crew walked out. The only

6 thing I observed Mr. Florence but they were down at the other

7 end. It looked like they were signing paperwork but I can't

8 speculate what paperwork it was.

9 THE COURT: You don't know what it was?

10 THE WITNESS: I didn't walk over there to look.

11 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

12 Q. They said they did not want to sign the paperwork without

13 reading it. Who are you talking to?

14 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Objection. Misstates. Leading.

15 THE COURT: This is part of the testimony. The

16 witness has testified. It is proper to repeat that to lead

17 into the question who made that statement.

18 The question is who said that.

19 BY THE WITNESS:

20 A. It is my crew and I can't remember everybody on the crew.

21 I can remember Robert Rodriguez because he is a friend of mine,

22 that is one. There was another person there named Mendez.

23 They are the only ones I can remember by name. It was my crew

24 at the time. There was about maybe six of us.

25 Q. What did you personally say?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 A. I personally said I was a little greasy right now. I

2 wanted to read what I was signing if I did it.

3 Q. What did Mr. Gonzalez say in response?

4 A. When the crew said we weren't going to sign until we read

5 it, he stood up and said we need this paperwork signed now.

6 Q. What if anything else did he say?

7 A. That is all he said to me, or to the crew.

8 Q. How quickly did Mr. Florence appear to be signing the

9 paperwork?

10 MR. DUNLAP: Objection, relevance.

11 THE COURT: I did not hear the beginning of it.

12 Repeat the question.

13 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

14 Q. How quickly did Mr. Florence appear to be signing the

15 paperwork?

16 THE COURT: That calls for an opinion on his part.

17 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

18 Q. How many times did you see him sign?

19 MR. DUNLAP: Objection.

20 MR. BRIGHAM: He testified he saw Mr. Florence

21 signing.

22 THE COURT: He said he didn't know what he was

23 signing. He saw him signing some papers.

24 How many papers did you see him signing if you know?

25 THE WITNESS: I don't really know.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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1 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

2 Q. Did you end up signing a document?

3 A. Yes, sir, I did.

4 Q. What document was that?

5 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Asked and answered.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 The subject matter perhaps has not been touched upon.

8 You told us -- I said you know you read it, you had done the

9 work and you signed it. What was the subject matter?

10 THE WITNESS: To install the PSUs on the right-hand

11 side of the aircraft. It had three steps to it. I would have

12 to read it to actually tell you each step.

13 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

14 Q. The other documents that you saw, what if anything did they

15 relate to?

16 A. They were engineering orders and the work orders.

17 Q. I am talking about the documents that were on the counter?

18 A. They were all the oxygen generator documents.

19 Q. How long were you in that booth approximately?

20 A. Approximately five minutes.

21 Q. I place before you Government's Exhibit 25 and 26. First

22 with respect to Government's Exhibit 25, directing your

23 attention to that part of the exhibit which is labeled 802

24 engineering order; do you recognize that?

25 A. Yes. That is the work card I saw, with the engineering

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

244

 

1 order, I guess.

2 Q. Is your signature on that page?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Where is it?

5 A. Right here.

6 Q. Do you recognize any other signatures on that page?

7 A. I don't really know who the top signature is. This from

8 seeing it, it looks like it is Eugene's signature there.

9 Q. I now refer you to what has been marked on the same

10 government Exhibit 25, non-routine work order 728H12W144 and do

11 you recognize this document?

12 A. Yes. That is the non-routine card that I started removing

13 the generators with.

14 Q. Is your signature on that page?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Where is that?

17 A. Right here at the top of the page.

18 Q. Marked next to entry number 1 under corrective action?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did you sign off on this document?

21 A. That document was when I first started to remove the oxygen

22 generators with the inserts and masks together. That was to

23 let the company know what I did that day because we are not

24 working off a work card or anything. I was told to go remove

25 the generators. After they were removed I have to write down

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

245

 

1 what I did that day and that says I removed the oxygen

2 generators from the aircraft and researched the parts.

3 Q. With respect to the engineering order I just showed you,

4 when did you sign that off?

5 A. On 5/4/96.

6 Do you want the date on the first one?

7 Q. You are welcome to tell me if you would like?

8 THE COURT: We have the document for the jury.

9 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

10 Q. Mr. Taber, I would like to show you what has been marked as

11 Government Exhibit 77J. Do you recognize those documents?

12 There are two separate documents. One is an order and another

13 is a letter.

14 A. It looks like my subpoenas.

15 Q. Mr. Taber, is that a court order granting you immunity?

16 A. This is granting me partial immunity.

17 Q. Have you reviewed that court order?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. Do you understand the terms of that order?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Also attached to that order I believe is a letter from the

22 United States Attorney's Office and have you had an opportunity

23 to review that letter?

24 A. The letter from -- the use immunity, yes. That was so I

25 could talk to the FAA.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

246

 

1 Q. That letter was issued for purposes --

2 THE COURT: You are leading your witness all over the

3 place.

4 Did you get some sort of immunity for your testimony

5 here today?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have use immunity.

7 THE COURT: Would you tell the jury what you

8 understand that to mean as best you can.

9 THE WITNESS: It means if I come in and tell the

10 truth, I have immunity, as long as I don't perjure myself.

11 THE COURT: Any other questions?

12 BY MR. BRIGHAM:

13 Q. Mr. Taber, while you were at SabreTech, what if any

14 training did you receive in the handling of hazardous

15 materials?

16 A. At SabreTech, none.

17 Q. What if any training did you receive in the handling of

18 oxygen generators?

19 A. I never had any training on oxygen generators at that time.

20 Q. When you went to work at SabreTech, were you a SabreTech

21 employee?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What were you?

24 A. I was a contractor for PDS.

25 Q. Who did you take your orders from as a contractor for PDS?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

247

 

1 A. I took my orders from PDS from Willy. That is all I knew

2 him by.

3 Q. Did there come a time you actually went and worked at

4 SabreTech as a PDS employee?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. With respect to your work, who gave you your orders there?

7 A. Lou would usually hand out our work.

8 Q. What would you do in response?

9 A. I would go to work.

10 Q. Lou is a SabreTech employee?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. BRIGHAM: If I may have a moment, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Yes.

14 (Interruption.)

15 MR. BRIGHAM: At this time I would like to offer

16 Government's Exhibits 77J, the Court order and letter into

17 evidence.

18 MS. MOSCOWITZ: No objection.

19 MR. BRIGHAM: I would like to offer --

20 THE COURT: 77J is admitted into evidence.

21 (A document was received in

22 evidence as Government's Exhibit 77J.)

23 MR. BRIGHAM: I offer Government's Exhibit 29, the

24 passenger safety unit.

25 MR. RASKIN: Objection. That is a demonstrative

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

248

 

1 exhibit. I don't think it should go into evidence.

2 THE COURT: We will take it up after we excuse the

3 jury.

4 MR. BRIGHAM: No further questions.

5 THE COURT: Is this a convenient time to recess for

6 the evening?

7 MS. MOSCOWITZ: Yes, sir.

8 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, let me instruct you

9 again not to read anything, watch anything, listen to anything

10 if there should be anything in the newspaper, radio or

11 television. Don't let anybody interfere with your total

12 concentration in this case. Don't discuss the facts of the

13 case with anyone or permit anyone to talk to you about the

14 case. Thank you for your promptness and your attention today.

15 I must advise you tomorrow afternoon we are having a

16 ceremony that when I came on the Court used to happen every ten

17 years, now it is happening more frequently because we have more

18 judges but we are swearing in a new Judge tomorrow and this is

19 kind of an important thing for our court, a very important

20 thing for our court and it is an important thing in his life,

21 who happens to be a young man. We have young women too. It is

22 very important in his life and he is being sworn in tomorrow

23 and it is important and traditional and a big ceremony; so I

24 haven't missed one in 30 years. I suppose I will have to

25 regretfully tear myself away from this trial and go over there.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

249

 

1 I hope you understand.

2 We will not be in session tomorrow afternoon. Certain

3 events start occurring with this ceremony at 12:30 which

4 requires my attendance. We will be in recess at 12 o'clock

5 tomorrow and we will be in recess tomorrow afternoon. The

6 ceremony won't last that long but having you all sit around and

7 wait; so you can make your plans accordingly.

8 Also I have discussed with the lawyers and in order

9 that you may make your personal plans, I know some of you have

10 plans to be out of town for Thanksgiving, we have agreed we

11 will not be in session on the Friday after Thanksgiving. The

12 Court will be open, there will probably be other hearings and

13 give us a chance to catch up; but you will not be expected to

14 be here on that particular Friday, so we will be off Thursday

15 and Friday, Thanksgiving day and the day following.

16 I tell you all this so you could make your plans

17 accordingly and plan ahead a little bit.

18 Thank you very much.

19 We will start tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

20 (Jury leaves room.)

21 THE COURT: Mr. Taber, you are not to talk with

22 anybody about the facts of your case. You cannot talk to the

23 lawyers or agents or anybody else. We ask that you go on home

24 and be back tomorrow morning a few minutes before nine and we

25 will try to be finished with you as promptly as we can.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

250

 

1 You are excused until tomorrow morning at nine a.m.

2 (Witness leaves room.)

3 THE COURT: We have the matter -- anybody that wants

4 to leave, fine, if not, have a seat.

5 We want to take up the matter of Government's Exhibit

6 29 for identification. I don't know what the document is --

7 MR. RASKIN: It is the PSU unit that was shown to the

8 jury as a jury aid. Our position is, it is simply a

9 demonstrative aid. It didn't come from any of the MD 80s in

10 this case. I assume it is similar to the MD 80s. However, I

11 don't think it is should go back to the juryroom.

12 THE COURT: I will give you the opportunity before

13 ruling on this to demonstrate if you are so inclined, and

14 presuming you can and I don't know whether you can or cannot,

15 but if the facts are such that this exhibit does not reasonably

16 accurately reflect a reproduction of the unit, the PSU unit,

17 then of course it wouldn't be admissible.

18 If it is a reasonably accurate reproduction of what

19 they were working on, I think it is helpful to everyone in

20 demonstrating how these parts are all put together and that

21 sort of thing.

22 If there is a suggestion that this unit has been

23 concocted or prepared for this trial and it is somehow

24 misleading, of course it won't be. I don't sense you are

25 suggesting that, but if that is the case, I certainly want to

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

251

 

1 hear it.

2 I should ask the government, where did this unit come

3 from? Is it out of an airplane or what?

4 MR. BRIGHAM: We received it from McDonnell-Douglas.

5 We requested a unit that would accurately resemble the type of

6 unit that would be found in the MD 80s where work was being

7 performed and I would note, Your Honor, if I may, actually two

8 witnesses have already found it has been useful, it fairly

9 represents the type of unit they have been working with.

10 THE COURT: It is not the problem. The problem is the

11 authenticity and genuineness of it.

12 You say it was produced by McDonnell-Douglas and sent

13 to you at your request and you brought it to the courtroom.

14 MR. BRIGHAM: McDonnell-Douglas is the manufacturer of

15 the MD 80s that the testimony has been about.

16 THE COURT: With that representation then and I ask

17 you to consider that --

18 MR. RASKIN: There is one other thing. I believe this

19 is a four mask unit and I don't think any of the MD 80s had

20 four mask units.

21 THE COURT: I heard some testimony earlier about, it

22 may have been the first witness, but someone said there are one

23 mask units, two mask units, three mask units and four mask

24 units. My impression or my memory from that testimony was the

25 four mask unit was one usually found in the cockpit used by the

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

252

 

1 crew. I may be in error about this but that is my memory or it

2 may not be limited to that; but if we make clear to the jury

3 that this was a reproduction prepared by the manufacturer of

4 this MD 80 and is used for demonstrative purposes only and not

5 intended to be any part of the crashed airplane that was

6 involved in this tragedy, it seems to me it would be

7 appropriate to have it as an exhibit.

8 We have had it around the courtroom for four days, I

9 am sure we will have it around for another month or so and the

10 jury has seen it, I think it is well for it to be a part of the

11 record. If there is anything wrong with it, everybody will

12 have access to it.

13 You think about it overnight and we have plenty of

14 time to rule on this. It is marked for identification at this

15 point as Exhibit 29, Government's Exhibit 29 for

16 identification.

17 Now, while we are getting Ms. Kramerman in to go over

18 the exhibits, are there any motions or legal matters we put off

19 until the end of the day to take up?

20 MR. MOSCOWITZ: There is also the matter of the

21 exhibit Ms. Miller moved to admit on her second redirect which

22 we objected to and the Court deferred ruling on that until

23 later.

24 THE COURT: There were two exhibits, 48A and 48B for

25 identification. Is that what you are referring to?

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

253

 

1 MS. MILLER: No, Your Honor.

2 At the end of Mr. DiStefano's redirect when we called

3 him back, I showed him this book, Government's Exhibits 2A and

4 he pointed out the pages he had flagged with these pink flags.

5 THE COURT: You are offering 2A into evidence.

6 MS. MILLER: I only offered into evidence the pages

7 that Mr. DiStefano pink flagged.

8 THE COURT: What is your objection to it? Let us

9 assume she is offering pages from this four to six inch thick

10 book that are marked with red tags, it looks like it is about

11 five or six red tags that she is offering.

12 MR. MOSCOWITZ: I think it is improper

13 rehabilitation. The issue is this. He testified on direct

14 that the work card --

15 THE COURT: No. This is not a question what he

16 testified on redirect is admissible. The question is whether

17 or not these pages that he identified whatever he said about

18 them, whether or not they are admissible into evidence. Are

19 they germane, relevant, admissible in this case. Why are they

20 not?

21 MR. MOSCOWITZ: They are only admissible as a prior

22 consistent statement which is to say, his assertion these are

23 the work cards that he remembered seeing, and these are not --

24 these don't qualify as a prior consistent statement for the

25 following reason.

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

254

 

1 It is an earlier consistent statement made at a

2 time --

3 THE COURT: I am sorry, let me interrupt you. A

4 witness comes in here and says I remember seeing this. I saw

5 it. Whether it is a consistent statement, inconsistent

6 statement or toilet paper from John Martin's bar, if he has

7 identified it as genuine and if it is relevant to something,

8 then it is admissible. It doesn't have to buttress or

9 contradict anybody's statement, so I don't understand your

10 argument that something is inadmissible because it helps or

11 hinders either side. The question here is admissibility. The

12 weight the jury will give to it -- they might treat it as I

13 suggested, using it as toilet paper from John Martin's bar or

14 they may treat it as an important document.

15 The man said these are -- I don't need to see them.

16 These are work cards that he had with him in the grand jury

17 room?

18 MS. MILLER: No, Your Honor. He didn't have them in

19 the grand jury room. He was subsequently able to go through

20 the whole book and from the book he picked out these pages as

21 the work card that was at issue here.

22 THE COURT: I don't understand what was at issue here?

23 What are the work cards?

24 MS. MILLER: The work card on the ice protection

25 system, the one he said --

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

255

 

1 THE COURT: He came into this courtroom and said I

2 worked on the ice protection -- no. Mr. Gonzalez signed off on

3 the ice protection system, or the cards appeared signed by

4 Mr. Gonzalez?

5 MS. MILLER: Yes, sir.

6 THE COURT: The thrust of the import of his testimony

7 was, Mr. Gonzalez could not have done that work by himself in

8 the period of time that the witness observed him taking the

9 cards and disappearing or -- not disappearing. That he left

10 the work booth and he was out of sight.

11 Now you wish to offer them as being the work cards

12 that he saw in Mr. Gonzalez' possession.

13 MS. MILLER: The work card is already in evidence.

14 What we wish to offer here is the work card as he identified it

15 with his identifying tags on it.

16 THE COURT: In proof of what?

17 MS. MILLER: In redirect, proof that it was not a

18 recent fabrication that he just came up with this card.

19 On cross examination Mr. Moscowitz established in the

20 grand jury the witness did not recall which work card it was

21 whereas today, considerably later, he does recall it.

22 The government on redirect sought to establish that

23 in-between those two appearances he was given the opportunity

24 to review the documents en masse and from that mass of

25 documents, he picked out what he recalled as being the work

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

256

 

1 card that was at issue that day and placed on those pages that

2 he picked out pink flags, and those are the pages that we seek

3 to introduce with the pink flags.

4 THE COURT: What is the number of this exhibit?

5 MS. MILLER: I would have to give it a number. It is

6 2P.

7 THE COURT: Let the record reflect we have been

8 talking about Government Exhibit 2P like in Peter for

9 identification.

10 The objection is sustained. It will be marked for

11 identification only, not shown to the jury and not argued to

12 the jury.

13 We have Government Exhibit 29 for identification that

14 has not been admitted. Is there an objection to 29?

15 MR. BRIGHAM: I believe that is the passenger service

16 unit.

17 THE COURT: All right.

18 Then 48A and 48B. I sustained the objections to those

19 at this point in time.

20 Therefore, let the record be clear that right now we

21 should have marked, and let's not confuse this so nothing goes

22 to the jury later that was not admitted. 48A and B and 2P,

23 those three exhibits, the objections have been sustained. They

24 will not be demonstrated or exhibited to the jury. They will

25 be marked for identification but not sent into the jury or

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

257

 

1 utilized further except perhaps in rebuttal if it should become

2 pertinent for some reason.

3 The passenger service unit, Exhibit 29 I reserved

4 ruling on.

5 The other government exhibits that have been admitted

6 into evidence in today's session and I will go slowly; the

7 following government exhibit numbers, 77B, 2F, 18F-2, 25 and

8 25A, 26 and 26A, 35A, 42, 43, 45, 77H, 64A, B and C, 28, 28B,

9 77J.

10 Defense SabreTech Exhibit 5 and SabreTech Exhibit 7.

11 Those are the exhibits which should be tendered to the

12 clerk and marked carefully in evidence and kept separate from

13 those that have not been admitted.

14 Anything else this evening except marking those

15 exhibits?

16 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, with regard to 25, 25A, 26

17 and 26A, they are thick sheaves of documents that were all

18 associated together. We did seek to introduce individual

19 copies of some of them and it is our hope perhaps after seeing

20 the unwieldy nature of the thick sheaves of paper, the Court

21 will reconsider the ability of the jury to deal more easily

22 with these individual documents as individual exhibits.

23 THE COURT: I think it will be very confusing to the

24 jury to send back there with them duplicates of these exhibits.

25 A juror picks up 26 and starts talking to the other jurors

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

258

 

1 about it and somebody else picks up 26XI and says wait a

2 minute, I don't agree or what is this, it is different. I

3 think it will be very confusing. You can gather up all of

4 those. I didn't refer to those because they were all

5 duplicates as I understood it. You can gather them all up and

6 we will take them up and I will be glad to discuss it with your

7 in the morning at our 7:30 or 8 o'clock session if that is what

8 you all wish to do.

9 You can gather them up and we will take a look at

10 them, but we have enough paper in this case without duplicate

11 copies coming in at this point.

12 Any other motions at this time?

13 MS. MILLER: No, Your Honor, not from the government.

14 THE COURT: So then in the morning we will resume with

15 the cross examination of Mr. Taber.

16 As you understand we have to recess at 12 o'clock.

17 Who is your next witness after Mr. Taber so we can

18 anticipate?

19 MS. MILLER: Your Honor, I think we are going to

20 change order a little bit because we have one witness who is

21 unavailable next week so with a short day, after Mr. Taber we

22 will call Mr. Joseph Fernandez, a witness from Continental.

23 THE COURT: Is he one of those that worked on these

24 aircraft?

25 MS. MILLER: He was from Continental which was doing

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

259

 

1 an audit of SabreTech and it is part of the factual background

2 why they were cleaning up the hangar at the end of this time

3 period.

4 After Mr. Fernandez, I don't know how many we will get

5 to but in order our next witnesses are mechanic Thomas Silvers,

6 shipping clerk Keith Ingram, assistant shipping clerk Carlos

7 Diaz and driver Mitch Perez. I can't imagine we will get

8 through all of those tomorrow but that is our order.

9 THE COURT: Thank you very much.

10 We will commence tomorrow at 9 o'clock and we will

11 recess at 12.

12 o0o

13

14 I certify that the foregoing is a correct

15 transcript from the record of proceedings

16 in the above-entitled matter.

17

18

19 ______ _______________________

20 Date Official Court Reporter

21

22

23

24

25

RICHARD A. KAUFMAN, RMR, NP

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